[Pc_Support] Re: [LeapList] Seeking recommendations for new box
Bryan J. Smith
b.j.smith at ieee.org
Mon May 8 21:47:43 EDT 2006
[ I really need to blog something related to this ]
Preamble:
AMD Socket-AM2 (940) desktop hits on May 23rd and Socket-F (LGA-1207)
workstation/server hits in the fall. I posted some Socket-F (LGA-1207)
mainboard photos I took at LinuxWorld Boston last month here:
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2006/04/server-hardware-at-linuxworld.html
Understand Socket-AM2/940 and F/LGA-1207 bring DDR2-800 SDRAM to AMD
with*OUT*ANY* "premium" mark-up. AMD is going to be virtually
_killing_off_ Socket-939/940 (940 as in Opteron 2xx/8xx 940) rather
quickly after they come out -- i.e., by 2007. Just like Socket-A/462
has been virtually _killed_off_ except for AMD Geode NX (embedded) now.
Of the existing, _only_ the Socket-754 will remain in quantity after
2006. There is even going to be a Socket-AM2/940 "Sempron" 64
off-the-bat. You will _not_ "save money" by buying old Socket-939/940
CPUs, just like _no_one_ did by buying old Socket-A/462 CPUs either.
AMD will and is pricing the new platform at _equivalent_ points.
Given that Socket-AM2/940 is only 5-15% faster with well-timed
(3-3-3-10) DDR2-800 (aka PC6400), and about the same with typical-timed
(4-4-4-12) DDR2-800 or DDR2-667, as Socket-939 with well-timed DDR400
(e.g., 2.5-3-3-6), it's up to you which you choose.
On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 20:23 -0400, Phil Barnett wrote:
> On NewEgg, you can get:
> Gigabyte GA-K8U-939 Socket 939 ULi M1689 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail $54.99
I can't recommend the ULi at this time, as I've heard various support
issues under Linux. These could have improved however. ATI and ViA
have the same issues with support.
I've been sticking with nVidia nForce4 chipsets and nForce410/430
(GeForce 6100/6150). nVidia puts the absolute most people on GPL driver
support, and their chipsets reflect that level of support in the _stock_
Linux kernel.
About the only issues I ever run into are the endless MAC+PHY Ethernet
combinations that the Tawainese mainboard vendors** come up with -- but
nVidia works on the GPL forcedeth NIC driver and they always make it
into the next kernel rev.
[ **NOTE: This is an issue that plagues everyone short of Intel, who is
a 800lbs. Gorilla that can force Tawainese vendors to use only their PHY
chips. Long story short, the chipset vendors provide the MAC logic, but
the Tawainese mainboard vendors are free to choose their own PHY
interface chip -- and there are way too many out there. ]
The ATA and SATA driver has been flawless. Not as featured as Intel,
but still flawless for me -- which makes it really the only viable
option for AMD.
> Gigaram 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Unbuffered Dual
> Channel Kit System Memory Model GR1DD8TD-K1GB4002.5 - Retail $75.89
I recommend 2GiB for VMWare. The difference between 2.5/3-4-4-8 timed
DDR400 and 2-3-3-6 timed DDR400 performance can be as much as 15-20%.
I have put in this matched G.Skill 1GiB pair (2GiB total) not only in
over a dozen different mainboards of no less than four (4) different
Socket-939 models, but even older Socket-462 models.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231047
It is a bargain for what you get at $150. The 2.5-3-3-6 timing is most
excellent and easily 15-20% faster than "Value" memory that costs even
more! But make sure you get _that_exact_ model.
If you want to save money and go for 1GiB, then get a matched 512MiB
pair (1GiB total) -- but be sure to _check_the_timings_ (lower is better
-- especially the latter numbers!):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Submit=ENE&N=2010170147+1052107965+1052308476+105241455&Subcategory=147
The Patriot 2-3-2-5 for $68.50 after rebate looks good (it's near the
bottom of the first page). Also note that timings _change_ for rated
synchronous timing. E.g., a 2-3-3-5 timed DDR333 is _slower_ than a
2-3-3-5 timed DDR400 because the timings are based on the clock. But a
2-3-3-5 timed DDR333 will typically be _faster_ than a 3-4-4-8 timed
DDR400.
> AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Manchester 2000MHz HT Socket 939 Dual Core Processor
> Model ADA3800BVBOX - Retail $297.00
Now I definitely agree with that model! Our build times were cut in
_more_ than half with that dual-core! Definitely agree on dual-core for
VMWare for $297 (2x2.0GHz, 2x128KiB L1, 2x512KiB L2, 2xDDR):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103562
If you want to save money, then here's a solid Socket-754 "entry" for
$73 (1.6GHz, 128KiB L1, 256KiB L2, 1xDDR):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819104245
Or a single-core Socket-939 "entry" for $114 (1.8GHz, 128KiB L1, 512KiB
L2, 2xDDR):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103537
I'd really push you to buy a Socket-939 for +$41 CPU, +$10 mainboard,
over a Socket-754 -- even though the platform dies in 2007. It's really
a much better CPU and platform for $50 more.
> Of course, there are some pretty severe tradeoffs here, like keeping AGP
> and not SLI,
???
Don't confuse _basic_ PCI-Express (PCIe) with _multiple_ PCIe slot SLI
(nVidia) or CrossFire (ATI) options. Single slot PCIe is _as_cheap_ as
AGP. nForce4 series PCIe mainboard cost _no_more_ than older nForce3
AGP mainboards. In fact, you're looking at $50 for Socket-754, $60
(+$10 more) for Socket-939 -- _regardless_ of what nVidia chipset you
pick.
And the nForce410/430 PCIe chipsets for that price give you _integrated_
GeForce 6100/6150 (NV44). The integrated GeForce 6100/6150 (NV44) GPU
is _faster_ than a GeForce FX5200/5500 (NV34) AGP card that costs $25-50
in the stores.
AGP is _dead_. It _costs_more_ to get _good_ AGP performance under $100
than single-slot PCIe. I comment on this _extensively_ in my Blog
here:
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2006/02/geforce-6-and-7-series-variants-nuts.html
I know of _no_one_ offering a _complete_breakdown_ of all GeForce 6/7
series products and variants that compare _all_ your nVidia options at
integrated video, $100, $100-200 and $200+.
> a relatively featureless motherboard and only 1 G of ram.
The difference between Socket-754 and Socket-939 is only $10 now. For
$50 or $60, you get a _very_feature-full_ nForce410 (with integrated
GeForce 6100). Socket-939 means dual-core, although the platform is
essentially dying at year's end. But then again, upgrading to a new
Socket-AM2/940 mainboard won't cost you but $60 come 2007 anyway.
Here are Socket-939 nForce410/430 (with integrated GeForce 6100/6150)
mainboards that start under $60:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Submit=ENE&N=2010200022+1075707619+1070907495+107191007&Subcategory=22
If you want a high-quality, high-feature nForce430 (with integrated
GeForce 6150) that has DVI as well as VGA out, the $78 Asus A8N-VM CSM
is what I've been going with:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131570
I've been typically throwing it in this MicroATX case with a _full_ 400W
ATX _2.0_ power supply (24+4, SATA connectors, etc...) for $40:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811190072
If you want 3 more slots with an ATX, there are some nForce410/430
options. Or you can opt for a nForce4 with non-integrated PCIe video
and add a $50/60 GeForce 7300LE/GS or maybe a $130 GeForce 7600GS if you
want more performance. Again, see my blog on your options:
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2006/02/geforce-6-and-7-series-variants-nuts.html
> Also, it requires you to salvage EVERYTHING else from another system.
> Personally, I'd want a new power supply on a new motherboard.
> Thermaltake TR2 W0070 ATX 430W Power Supply - Retail $39.99 (29 after rebate)
Be sure to get an ATX _2.0_ power supply with 24+4 connectors. You
_need_ it for Socket-939, _especially_ for dual-core.
Again, if you're going with a MicroATX nForce410/430 mainboard, I like
these cases with a 400W ATX _2.0_ power supply for $40:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811190072
But if you want to save on shipping, Cheapguys (on East Colonial) has
been carrying more and more options -- especially for ATX (not so much
MicroATX). Although they even carry the "Chenming 118" series MicroATX
cube now. Unfortunately, they ship a _crappy_ 420W ATX _1.0_ power
supply with it like the Aspire Q-XPacks do. That PS is so _over-rated_.
But it's still an option, if you already have a PS.
Then again, you're 3+ hours away from us, so it's not local for
you. ;->
> So, with shipping you are up around $500, but it's a kick butt machine
> compared to what you've been using and there's no reason to think that you
> would not be satisfied with it for many years, even if you don't run it 64
> bit right now. It'll still romp as a 32 bit machine.
Yes. Unless you know what you are doing, do _not_ run the x86-64
version of Fedora Core, SuSE Linux or others. And definitely _never_
run the x86-64 version of Windows (at least not until Vista).
> Good luck and have fun! There's nothing like a dual core machine that you've
> ever experienced. They just run soooo good.
They instantly give you the response time of dual-processor. It's not
Intel HyperMarketing--er, HyperThreading non-sense -- _true_
dual-processor.
Now it's not the same performance of dual Socket-940 for _servers_, but
for desktops, basically the same.
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance
mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
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