From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 1 09:43:52 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] View EXT2/EXT3 partitions, from windows Message-ID: <200510010943.52302.pberry2@cfl.rr.com> http://www.fs-driver.org/ is the website I found, for this 'freeware' any comments? Suggestions? It allows one to view, modify, files over 'there' on other partitions, with out re-booting into Linux! -- Patrick Berry, USAF (Ret.) http://af.mil http://counter.li.org http://knopper.net/knoppix http://distrowatch.com http://livecdlist.com http://linuxiso.org http://yolinux.com http://safeharbordome.com http://monolithicdome.com http://minidome.net http://fairtax.org From tim at mcdonough.net Sun Oct 2 12:05:41 2005 From: tim at mcdonough.net (Tim McDonough) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Samba Config Question Message-ID: <43400555.1040600@mcdonough.net> I have a Debian Linux system that runs Samba 3.0.14a to serve up files for a home network with 3 Windows machines. How can I configure Samba so that there is one directory that is available to anything on the network without having to enter a login name or password? Everything works as I want it for other directories for specific accounts/users. -- Tim From philb at philb.us Sun Oct 2 13:56:17 2005 From: philb at philb.us (Phil Barnett) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Samba Config Question In-Reply-To: <43400555.1040600@mcdonough.net> References: <43400555.1040600@mcdonough.net> Message-ID: <200510021356.17615.philb@philb.us> On Sunday 02 October 2005 12:05 pm, Tim McDonough wrote: > I have a Debian Linux system that runs Samba 3.0.14a to serve up files > for a home network with 3 Windows machines. How can I configure Samba > so that there is one directory that is available to anything on the > network without having to enter a login name or password? Everything > works as I want it for other directories for specific accounts/users. To my knowledge, there is always a user associated with SMB shares. But, you can put the user id and password in the fstab that automounts the share like this: in /etc/fstab //smb/pub /mnt/dir smbfs username=me,password=XoXoX 0 0 -- Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. it's the only thing that ever has. From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Mon Oct 3 12:46:32 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay ... Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1148@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> http://www.betanews.com/article/Paramount_to_Support_Bluray/1128357330 Paramount has just announced its hopping the fence to join the Blu-Ray group "after more detailed assessment and new data on cost, manufacturability and copy protection solutions". Interesting. The question is: which format will the porn industry support (the porn industry's support of VHS pushed it to become the defacto standard in the 80's over the superior Betamax)? -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 3 14:47:36 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX 2.0 PS for $39 AR ($69 OtD) Message-ID: <20051003184736.93454.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> CompUSA.COM had an Antec Midsize ATX with a 120mm outtake fan and a 350W ATX 2.0 power supply (12V1=10A, 12V2=15A) for $39 after-rebate (AR), $69 out-the-door (OtD). I bought one and it's the best steel ATX case deal I've seen in awhile with It basically cuts 2x 5.25" bays off of the old SX1000 series (a good 4" lopped off the height, and a little off the depth too), adds a nice 120mm outtake fan (as well as a 80mm "intake tube above CPU" on the side) plus the moern ATX 2.0 power supply. I'm using it for my old Abit BP6 dual-Celeron for now (with an older ATX 1.0 PS), and the top two (2) of four (4) 5.25" bays have enough clearance for two (2) long, removable hard drive bays. The cooling may not be the ultimate (like a Lian Li PC-1x000V or Silverstone TJ-06), but it's "good enough," and the weight isn't that much over the Antec LanBoy Alumnium (which costs twice as much without a PS). http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=312799 CompUSA also has an Antec 500W ATX 2.0 power supply on-sale for $59 AR. It has much higher output on the 12V1 (16A I believe?) and 12V2 (17A I believe?), as well as one SSI WS (aka PCIe) power 2x3 connector. Not bad for the price if you want a true 500W (this one rates at 490W overall) without stooping to el'chepo brand. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 3 15:06:41 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Socket-754 SFF (9.5x8.3x12") nForce3 Barebones Kit for $129, $144 with 8xDVD+/-RW Message-ID: <20051003190641.98045.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you've already got an AGP card, but are interested in moving to Athlon/Sempron 64 in a small form-factor (SFF) with a good chipset and on-board peripherals, this might be it. At 9.5" x 8.3" x 12", it's almost a good 1.5-2" smaller in every dimension than my Chemning MicroATX cube. Being alumnium, it should weight 3-4lbs. less too. It's clearly a proprietary mainboard (only 1 AGP x4/x8 and 1 PCI slot), although I'm not sure about the PS (possibly MicroATX?). PS is only 220W, so don't throw a GeForce 6800GT in there, although a GeForce 6600GT or lower might do just fine. All kinds of goodies on-board, including FireWire, optical audio in/out and 6 USB ports. 1x 5.25" ext, 1x 3.5" ext and 1x 3.5" int. The enclosure with PS, mainboard and cabling can be had for $129. Or by using another code, you can get it with a Sony DRU-530A 8x DVD+RW/+R (that also does DVD-R/RW). http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=hu61&sourceid=qIZmQ0F-YnD5AlnvzEkG&cm_ven=CJ&cm_pla=0039448524&cm_ite=hu61 -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 3 15:08:16 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Socket-754 SFF (9.5x8.3x12") nForce3 Barebones Kit for $129, $144 with 8xDVD+/-RW In-Reply-To: <20051003190641.98045.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051003190817.60101.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > The enclosure with PS, mainboard and cabling can be had for > $129. Or by using another code, you can get it with a Sony > DRU-530A 8x DVD+RW/+R (that also does DVD-R/RW). > http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=hu61&sourceid=qIZmQ0F-YnD5AlnvzEkG&cm_ven=CJ&cm_pla=0039448524&cm_ite=hu61 Here's the link with all the codes needed for either of the 2 configuration options/prices: http://dealnews.com/deals/FIC-Ice-Cube-IC-HU61-Barebones-System-w-Sony-8-x-DVD-RW-IDE-for-145/96888.html -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 3 16:06:08 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Anyone have a GeForce AGP card they want to sell? Message-ID: <20051003200608.15905.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As irony would have it, I have a need for a nVidia GeForce AGP card. It can be any make, legacy, etc... -- from the NV11 MX to a NV34 GeForce FX5200 will do. I've lent out most of my cards, and I'm finding that a GeForce FX5200 PCI (yes, 32-bit PCI) is tying up too much I/O on my Abit BP6's shared PCI bus. BTW, I'm willing to swap 1:1, the FX5200 PCI for an AGP, if you're looking for a PCI (not PCI-Express/PCIe, this is 32-bit PCI) version. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Mon Oct 3 19:28:22 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (Austin Denyer (Ozz)) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. Message-ID: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Hi Guys. I'm looking for some advice on a power workstation. There is a choice of four. The first 2 are from Monarch Computers, the third is Penguin Computing and the last is from Dell. The main difference between them is the CPU. AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Dual-Core 1MB AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Dual-Core 1MB AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 (939) Dual Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz 2MB The box will be a business workstation, so high-end gaming-quality video is not required. Raw CPU and I/O is more important, but so is bang for the buck. It will be running Debian. What do y'all recommend? Here are the choices: 1. Case: 100159 - NO PS - Antec Performance One P160 ATX $125.00 PSU : 100992 - PS 430W - Thermaltake W0070RUC TR2 ATX 12 $49.00 Case Fan: 100887 - 120mm - Antec 120mm SmartCool Case Fan $18.00 MB: 110366 - BFG BFGRNVF4U NForce4 Ultra Audio/LAN/USB $112.00 CPU: 120243 - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Dual-Core 1MB $884.00 Thermal Grease: 800018 - Shin-Etsu G675 Thermal Grease $14.00 Memory: 140713 - DDR (400) 3200 - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) OCZ $127.00 1st Hard Drive: 150352 - SATAII - WD Caviar SE 160 GB $87.00 2nd Hard Drive: 150352 - SATAII - WD Caviar SE 160 GB $87.00 CD-RW/DVD-RW: 160236 - DVD?RW - NEC ND-3540A 16X DL DVD? $46.00 Floppy Drive: 170511 - TEAC 1.44 MB 3.5" Floppy Drive $18.00 Video: 190504 - ATI (Connect 3D) Radeon X700 PRO 128MB DD $125.00 $125.00 Network Card: 280116 - 3Com 3C2000-T NIC 10/100/1000 $56.00 Order Total: $1,832.00 ================================================================== 2. As above but: CPU: 120241 - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Dual-Core 1MB $526.00 Total: $1,474.00 ================================================================== 3. Case: 100239 - NO PS - Thermaltake VA7000BWA Shark Full $150.00 PSU: 100122 - PS 535W - Enermax EG565P-FMA REV.2.0 ATX $80.00 MB: 110257 - Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe nForce4 SLI $165.00 CPU: 120465 - AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 (939) (Retail) $811.00 Thermal Grease: 800018 - Shin-Etsu G675 Thermal Grease $14.00 Memory: 140252 - DDR (400) 3200 - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) Corsair $204.00 1st Hard Drive: 150938 - SATA - WD (WD2500JD) 250 GB $117.00 DVD: 160620 - DVD-RW - Asus DRW-1608PBLK 6x-DVD $84.00 Floppy Drive: 170511 - TEAC 1.44 MB 3.5" Floppy Drive $18.00 Video Card: 190325 - eVGA GeForce 6600 GT 128MB $160.00 Network Card: 280116 - 3Com 3C2000-T Gigabit NIC $56.00 Total: $1,943.00 ================================================================= 4. Dell Precision Workstation 470n Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz, 2MB L2 Cache Operating System Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS v4 for EM64T 64bit system w/ 1 YR RHN, w/ Media 2nd Processor (Must match speed selection above) Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz, 2MB L2 cache Memory 1GB, DDR2 SDRAM Memory, 400MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS) Keyboard Entry Level, USB, No Hot Keys Graphic Cards 64MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro NVS 280, Dual DVI or Dual VGA Capable 1st Hard Drive 160GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache? without RAID 2nd Hard Drive 160GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache? without RAID Hard Drive Configuration C1A- All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 2 drive total configuration Floppy Drive Options 3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive USB Memory Key 512MB Dell? USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Memory Key CD-ROM, DVD, and Read-Write Devices 48X/32X CD-RW/DVD Combo, Data Only Speakers Dell? two piece stereo spkrs Resource CD Resources CD contains Diagnostics and Driver for Precision Systems Hardware Support Services 3 Year On-site Economy Plan Mouse Pad Quick Reference Guide TOTAL:$2,347.00 ========================================================= Regards, Ozz. From jasonb at edseek.com Mon Oct 3 20:25:44 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> References: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <200510032025.45058.jasonb@edseek.com> On Monday 03 October 2005 19:28, Austin Denyer wrote: > Hi Guys. > > I'm looking for some advice on a power workstation. > > There is a choice of four. The first 2 are from Monarch Computers, the > third is Penguin Computing and the last is from Dell. I may be the only one who had this issue, but when I called Monarch Computer for a quote for a small shop, I found their voice mail busy back in June or July. It was strange. I ended up buying a rackmount server from rackmountpro.com. For a personal purchase from Monarch, I ended up with this result[1]. Note that, despite my last update, I still do not have the credit applied to my card. I'm going to have to call and play phone tag again I suppose. Very irritating. Sigh. [1] http://edseek.com/archives/2005/08/25/boo-on-monarch-computer-for-taking-my-cash/ -- Jason Boxman http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff From damien at mc-kenna.com Mon Oct 3 20:58:50 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> References: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <4341D3CA.7090604@mc-kenna.com> Austin (Ozz) Denyer wrote: > There is a choice of four. The first 2 are from Monarch Computers, the > third is Penguin Computing and the last is from Dell. > The main difference between them is the CPU. > AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Dual-Core 1MB > AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Dual-Core 1MB > AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 (939) > Dual Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz 2MB > Of the three CPU types the Biathlon 64 X2 is the best chip for multitasking, i.e. when you want multiple tasks getting lots of CPU time and not just one all-for-nothing (e.g. gaming). Intel x86 processors aren't worth it these days. Some other thoughts: * You might consider getting some of the parts separately, e.g. the LG Electronics GSA-4163 or similar for about $50 including shipping will do the same as the drives you list *and* DVD-RAM, which is useful for workstationy things. * I'd suggest 2gig of RAM if you're really aiming at heavy multi-tasking big apps. * If you aren't after graphics performance you could save yourself some more and get a lower card, e.g. an nVidia 6200 (non-Turbocache). * Consider looking at nVidia Pro-based motherboards, they'll give you more I/O and have less of the useless bells 'n whistles like RAID or SLI that you won't want anyway. * The nVidia boards are better supported with drivers than ATIs. * I got a Radeon x700 Pro 128mb card a few months ago for $110-ish. * The nForce 4 chipset includes gig-E so why are you paying extra for it? * Read up on some of the recent HD threads here, the executive summary is that WD Raptors are the best to get, then Seagate drives, then WD "JD" drives, with just about everything else in fourth place. * The Dell is over-priced compared to the others for what you get. Unless you're doing heavy CAD, CAM, etc the Quadro video card won't be worth it. * Did you look at HP or Sun systems, they do some good Biathlon 64 / Deuteron systems these days. * Any reason you didn't consider building it yourself? Bryan, know of any up-to-date benchmarks between Deuteron systems with the nForce Pro chipsets and the 64X2s on the nForce 4 Ultra for workstation tasks? I've not seen any myself. BTW, Ozz, I'm exceedingly jealous :-P -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From whittake at sbaflorida.com Tue Oct 4 07:25:01 2005 From: whittake at sbaflorida.com (Homer Whittaker) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> References: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <1128425101.28278.8.camel@sbaflorida> On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 19:28 -0400, Austin Denyer wrote: > Hi Guys. > > I'm looking for some advice on a power workstation. > > There is a choice of four. The first 2 are from Monarch Computers, the > third is Penguin Computing and the last is from Dell. > > The main difference between them is the CPU. > AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Dual-Core 1MB > AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Dual-Core 1MB > AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 (939) In re the 64 bit cpu, my personal advice is don't. I have had an amd64 bit machine for 6 or more months now and the 64 bit stuff stinks. I now run only 32 bit programs on the machine. I do not have Bryans technical knowledge on why or why not but I have used (not been able to) use(d) it. > Dual Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz 2MB > > The box will be a business workstation, so high-end gaming-quality > video is not required. Raw CPU and I/O is more important, but so is > bang for the buck. It will be running Debian. > > What do y'all recommend? > > Here are the choices: > > 1. > > Case: 100159 - NO PS - Antec Performance One P160 ATX $125.00 > PSU : 100992 - PS 430W - Thermaltake W0070RUC TR2 ATX 12 $49.00 > Case Fan: 100887 - 120mm - Antec 120mm SmartCool Case Fan $18.00 > MB: 110366 - BFG BFGRNVF4U NForce4 Ultra Audio/LAN/USB $112.00 > CPU: 120243 - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Dual-Core 1MB $884.00 Same as above. > Thermal Grease: 800018 - Shin-Etsu G675 Thermal Grease $14.00 > Memory: 140713 - DDR (400) 3200 - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) OCZ $127.00 > 1st Hard Drive: 150352 - SATAII - WD Caviar SE 160 GB $87.00 > 2nd Hard Drive: 150352 - SATAII - WD Caviar SE 160 GB $87.00 > CD-RW/DVD-RW: 160236 - DVD?RW - NEC ND-3540A 16X DL DVD? $46.00 > Floppy Drive: 170511 - TEAC 1.44 MB 3.5" Floppy Drive $18.00 > Video: 190504 - ATI (Connect 3D) Radeon X700 PRO 128MB DD $125.00 If you are not doing games and high speed graphics, why the fancy video. Take a look at the Matrox cards, like G400 or G450. > $125.00 Network Card: 280116 - 3Com 3C2000-T NIC 10/100/1000 $56.00 > > Order Total: $1,832.00 > ================================================================== > > 2. > > As above but: > > CPU: 120241 - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Dual-Core 1MB $526.00 > > Total: $1,474.00 > ================================================================== > > 3. > > Case: 100239 - NO PS - Thermaltake VA7000BWA Shark Full $150.00 > PSU: 100122 - PS 535W - Enermax EG565P-FMA REV.2.0 ATX $80.00 > MB: 110257 - Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe nForce4 SLI $165.00 > CPU: 120465 - AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 (939) (Retail) $811.00 > Thermal Grease: 800018 - Shin-Etsu G675 Thermal Grease $14.00 > Memory: 140252 - DDR (400) 3200 - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) Corsair $204.00 > 1st Hard Drive: 150938 - SATA - WD (WD2500JD) 250 GB $117.00 > DVD: 160620 - DVD-RW - Asus DRW-1608PBLK 6x-DVD $84.00 > Floppy Drive: 170511 - TEAC 1.44 MB 3.5" Floppy Drive $18.00 > Video Card: 190325 - eVGA GeForce 6600 GT 128MB $160.00 > Network Card: 280116 - 3Com 3C2000-T Gigabit NIC $56.00 > > Total: $1,943.00 > > ================================================================= > > 4. > > Dell Precision Workstation 470n > Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz, 2MB L2 Cache > > Operating System > Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS v4 for EM64T 64bit system w/ 1 YR RHN, w/ > Media > > 2nd Processor (Must match speed selection above) > Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz, 2MB L2 cache > > Memory > 1GB, DDR2 SDRAM Memory, 400MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS) > > Keyboard > Entry Level, USB, No Hot Keys > > Graphic Cards > 64MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro NVS 280, Dual DVI or Dual VGA Capable > > 1st Hard Drive > 160GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache? without RAID > > 2nd Hard Drive > 160GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache? without RAID > > Hard Drive Configuration > C1A- All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 2 drive total configuration > > Floppy Drive Options > 3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive > USB Memory Key > 512MB Dell? USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Memory Key > > CD-ROM, DVD, and Read-Write Devices > 48X/32X CD-RW/DVD Combo, Data Only > > Speakers > Dell? two piece stereo spkrs > > Resource CD > Resources CD contains Diagnostics and Driver for Precision Systems > > Hardware Support Services > 3 Year On-site Economy Plan > > Mouse Pad > > Quick Reference Guide > > TOTAL:$2,347.00 > ========================================================= > > Regards, > Ozz. > _______________________________________________ > Pc_support mailing list > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Tue Oct 4 11:33:30 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1183@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > In re the 64 bit cpu, my personal advice is don't. I have > had an amd64 bit machine for 6 or more months now and the > 64 bit stuff stinks. As mentioned in other threads, the distribution you use makes a huge difference. Also, some drivers are much more mature than others, specifically the nVidia chipsets have better drivers than e.g. VIA. > > Video: 190504 - ATI (Connect 3D) Radeon X700 PRO 128MB DD $125.00 > > If you are not doing games and high speed graphics, why the > fancy video. Take a look at the Matrox cards, like G400 or G450. Unless he wants to waste motherboard resources and limit future upgrade abilities he should look for PCI-Express and not AGP or PCI. Matrox don't make any PCI-Express cards last time I looked, and even if they did they'd cost the same as better cards from other suppliers. The G4xx series are all AGP or PCI based, and he'd choke his system to use either. As I mentioned he'd be best to look at an Geforce 6200 (non-Turbocache) card and save the $50 when he doesn't want 3d power. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 4 12:11:53 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1183@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051004161153.46361.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Homer-de-Hacker wrote: > In re the 64 bit cpu, my personal advice is don't. I > have had an amd64 bit machine for 6 or more months now > and the 64 bit stuff stinks. Hate to cross you Homer, but I think your issues have more to do with chipset (possibly distribution) than AMD64. I've been running with AMD64 on my personal workstation and build system for work (I tote it back'n forth) with Fedora Core 3/x86-64, Red Hat Enterprise Linux (and CentOS) 3 and 4/x86-46 with _no_ issues except manually re-packaging Firefox and associated bins, libs, plug-ins for it. If you're like me, I'm not building a full ATX system anymore. With the new GeForce 61x0 / nForce 4x0 in MicroATX, I _strongly_ recommend you go with these solutions for <<$100. The Socket-754 is just over $50, and the Socket-939 (which has dual-core options) start at $70. You get on-board video that does the job -- GeForce 6150 come with HDTV component out (including 1080p). Not sure about GeForce 61x0 support in Linux, but I assume all but the latest features work with the existing G7x drivers in the Standardware "nvidia" driver. If you want more of a full ATX, there are countless nForce4, 4x, Ultra and even SLI mainboards that are sub-$100. I highly recommend the nForce4. If you want more workstation, then look to nForce Pro 2200, possibly the 2200+2050, and with the AMD8131 if you want PCI-X busses (for 3Ware cards). Otherwise, the on-board I/O contention is solved quite well given the fact that the SATA ports are on their own, dedicated PCIe x1 channels (1 channel per 4 SATA ports). I can't believe how fast I can install software from CD/DVD now that the CD/DVD (ATA) and HD (SATA) drives are on different PCI busses. > Unless he wants to waste motherboard resources and limit > future upgrade abilities he should look for PCI-Express > and not AGP or PCI. Matrox don't make any PCI-Express > cards last time I looked, and even if they did they'd cost > the same as better cards from other suppliers. PCI-Express (PCIe) is now the future, and stability is most excellent. Especially on native PCIe designs like the GeForce 61x0, 6200, 6600 and 7800 series. OTHER BS NOTES: 1. Monarch Computer is getting a bad rap as of late. I'd avoid them. 2. NewEgg.COM doesn't offer pre-assembly w/burn-in as an option IIRC. 3. I haven't used them in awhile, but Multiwave (http://www.mwave.com) does offer pre-assembly w/burn-in as an option IIRC. They are close to NewEgg.COM in pricing in many areas (and I used to use them before I discovered NewEgg in 2001). 4. LG GSA-4167BK (black faceplace) is $42.99 at NewEgg.COM. No reason to buy any other drive -- it's got the best features (and the best Linux compatibility). 5. Dual-core (single socket) <= Dual-processor (dual-socket) when comparing AMD to AMD. In AMD, dual Socket-940 Opteron 2xx gets you 2x memory and I/O versus single Socket-939 Athlon64x2 or the new Socket-939 Opteron 1x5 (dual-core Opteron in Socket-939, uses ECC non-registered). 6. Now when it comes to Intel, dual-core v. dual-procesor makes _little_ difference. The memory and I/O in 2x Socket-604 versus LGA-775/Socket-479 can (and often is in low-cost mainboards) _no_better_. It all depends. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 4 13:02:35 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <20051004161153.46361.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051004170235.29208.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > 3. I haven't used them in awhile, but Multiwave > (http://www.mwave.com) does offer pre-assembly w/burn-in as > an option IIRC. They are close to NewEgg.COM in pricing in > many areas (and I used to use them before I discovered > NewEgg in 2001). Actually, I don't see it anymore, but that might be because I didn't go through some steps. Both they and NewEgg have bare-bone kits, although I think NewEgg is more "vendor created" kits whereas MWave has some of their own. In any case, if you just want PCIe and 64-bit on the cheap, the Sempron 64 2800+ (1.6GHz, HT800, 256KB L2) is probably the best "Bang-for-the-Buck" right now in the Socket-754 mainboard (only 1 DIMM required), especially the new GeForce 6100 + nForce 410 combination that is ultra-cheap. MWave actually bests NewEgg in pricing there, and will test the mainboard + CPU + memory and ship you the 64-bit version of FarCry for free: http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=MB-BA21790 $ 67 for the Sempron 64 2800+ AMD retail box $ 58 for the Biostar GeForce6100-M7 S754 mainboard $ 46 for 512MiB Crucial DDR400 $ 9 for assembly/testing I tried to add the Aspire X-QPack w/420W ATX 1.0x PS, but there were no options for assembling futher that I could see. If you're not looking there, as far as cheap mini-tower ATX cases with an ATX 2.0 PS included, the Antec w/350W ATX 2.0 at CompUSA this week for $39 AR ($69 OtD) is one I personally bought and recommend. The CPU intake cylinder is nice on the side, and the 120mm outtake in the back does the job. Plus it's tool-less entry, drives, etc... (you never have to take the backpanel off). -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 4 13:13:03 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <20051004170235.29208.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051004171303.11912.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > MWave actually bests NewEgg in pricing there, and will test > the mainboard + CPU + memory and ship you the 64-bit > version > of FarCry for free: > http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=MB-BA21790 > $ 67 for the Sempron 64 2800+ AMD retail box > $ 58 for the Biostar GeForce6100-M7 S754 mainboard > $ 46 for 512MiB Crucial DDR400 > $ 9 for assembly/testing It looks like they have the specs wrong for the page (I noted the same, incorrect specs on just the CPU page by itself too). It's clearly the 64-bit, otherwise the mainboard selection would not be Socket-754 (compared to the page for the Socket-462 ones). Someone copied specs and didn't check. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Tue Oct 4 13:13:48 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F118B@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > Homer-de-Hacker wrote: > > In re the 64 bit cpu, my personal advice is don't. I > > have had an amd64 bit machine for 6 or more months now > > and the 64 bit stuff stinks. > > Hate to cross you Homer, but I think your issues have more to > do with chipset (possibly distribution) than AMD64. Yeah, that one was pretty well covered in a leaplist thread last week or so. > I've been running with AMD64 on my personal workstation and > build system for work (I tote it back'n forth) with Fedora Core > 3/x86-64, Red Hat Enterprise Linux (and CentOS) 3 and > 4/x86-46 with _no_ issues except manually re-packaging > Firefox and associated bins, libs, plug-ins for it. I've got Ubuntu/64 running on my home Athlon64 (nForce4 mobo) just fine. Took a little tweaking because I've got an ATI card, but its fine now. > I can't believe how fast I can install software from CD/DVD now > that the CD/DVD (ATA) and HD (SATA) drives are on different > PCI busses. That's probably one of my problems at home, 8x speed DVD-R burning often fails using Nero on our GSA4163 (Maxtor 160gb IDE HD) while the P4/1.8ghz POCompaqS works fine every time... Confuses the heck out of me. I'm looking to get an SATA drive soon, hopefully it should boost performance in this regard. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Tue Oct 4 13:16:18 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:19 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F118C@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > That's probably one of my problems at home, 8x speed DVD-R > burning often fails using Nero on our GSA4163 (Maxtor 160gb IDE HD) > while the P4/1.8ghz POCompaqS works fine every time... Oh yeah, *and* my PC at work (P4) has a PCI video card adding extra bandwidth & CPU wasting to the equation. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From whittake at sbaflorida.com Tue Oct 4 09:40:46 2005 From: whittake at sbaflorida.com (Homer Whittaker) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <1128425101.28278.8.camel@sbaflorida> References: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> <1128425101.28278.8.camel@sbaflorida> Message-ID: <200510040940.46974.whittake@sbaflorida.com> Before you sink big bucks into an amd64 system I suggest that you hit and/or subscribe to debian-amd64 and/or suse-amd64 pages. The comments are voluminous, to say the least. Homer On Tuesday 04 October 2005 07:25, Homer Whittaker wrote: > On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 19:28 -0400, Austin Denyer wrote: > > Hi Guys. > > > > I'm looking for some advice on a power workstation. > > > > There is a choice of four. The first 2 are from Monarch > > Computers, the third is Penguin Computing and the last is > > from Dell. > > > > The main difference between them is the CPU. > > AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Dual-Core 1MB > > AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Dual-Core 1MB > > AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 (939) > > In re the 64 bit cpu, my personal advice is don't. I have had > an amd64 bit machine for 6 or more months now and the 64 bit > stuff stinks. I now run only 32 bit programs on the machine. > I do not have Bryans technical knowledge on why or why not but > I have used (not been able to) use(d) it. > > > Dual Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz 2MB > > > > The box will be a business workstation, so high-end > > gaming-quality video is not required. Raw CPU and I/O is > > more important, but so is bang for the buck. It will be > > running Debian. > > > > What do y'all recommend? > > > > Here are the choices: > > > > 1. > > > > Case: 100159 - NO PS - Antec Performance One P160 ATX > > $125.00 PSU : 100992 - PS 430W - Thermaltake W0070RUC TR2 > > ATX 12 $49.00 Case Fan: 100887 - 120mm - Antec 120mm > > SmartCool Case Fan $18.00 MB: 110366 - BFG BFGRNVF4U > > NForce4 Ultra Audio/LAN/USB $112.00 CPU: 120243 - AMD > > Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Dual-Core 1MB $884.00 > > Same as above. > > > Thermal Grease: 800018 - Shin-Etsu G675 Thermal Grease > > $14.00 Memory: 140713 - DDR (400) 3200 - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) > > OCZ $127.00 1st Hard Drive: 150352 - SATAII - WD > > Caviar SE 160 GB $87.00 2nd Hard Drive: 150352 - > > SATAII - WD Caviar SE 160 GB $87.00 CD-RW/DVD-RW: > > 160236 - DVD?RW - NEC ND-3540A 16X DL DVD? $46.00 > > Floppy Drive: 170511 - TEAC 1.44 MB 3.5" Floppy Drive > > $18.00 Video: 190504 - ATI (Connect 3D) Radeon X700 PRO > > 128MB DD $125.00 > > If you are not doing games and high speed graphics, why the > fancy video. Take a look at the Matrox cards, like G400 or > G450. > > > $125.00 Network Card: 280116 - 3Com 3C2000-T NIC 10/100/1000 > > $56.00 > > > > Order Total: > > $1,832.00 > > ============================================================ > >====== > > > > 2. > > > > As above but: > > > > CPU: 120241 - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Dual-Core 1MB > > $526.00 > > > > Total: > > $1,474.00 > > ============================================================ > >====== > > > > 3. > > > > Case: 100239 - NO PS - Thermaltake VA7000BWA Shark Full > > $150.00 PSU: 100122 - PS 535W - Enermax EG565P-FMA REV.2.0 > > ATX $80.00 MB: 110257 - Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe nForce4 > > SLI $165.00 CPU: 120465 - AMD Athlon 64 > > FX-55 (939) (Retail) $811.00 Thermal Grease: > > 800018 - Shin-Etsu G675 Thermal Grease $14.00 Memory: > > 140252 - DDR (400) 3200 - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) Corsair $204.00 > > 1st Hard Drive: 150938 - SATA - WD (WD2500JD) 250 GB > > $117.00 DVD: 160620 - DVD-RW - Asus DRW-1608PBLK 6x-DVD > > $84.00 Floppy Drive: 170511 - TEAC 1.44 MB 3.5" > > Floppy Drive $18.00 Video Card: 190325 - eVGA > > GeForce 6600 GT 128MB $160.00 Network Card: > > 280116 - 3Com 3C2000-T Gigabit NIC $56.00 > > > > Total: > > $1,943.00 > > > > ============================================================ > >===== > > > > 4. > > > > Dell Precision Workstation 470n > > Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz, 2MB L2 Cache > > > > Operating System > > Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS v4 for EM64T 64bit system w/ 1 > > YR RHN, w/ Media > > > > 2nd Processor (Must match speed selection above) > > Intel? Xeon? Processor 2.80GHz, 2MB L2 cache > > > > Memory > > 1GB, DDR2 SDRAM Memory, 400MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS) > > > > Keyboard > > Entry Level, USB, No Hot Keys > > > > Graphic Cards > > 64MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro NVS 280, Dual DVI or Dual VGA > > Capable > > > > 1st Hard Drive > > 160GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache? > > without RAID > > > > 2nd Hard Drive > > 160GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache? > > without RAID > > > > Hard Drive Configuration > > C1A- All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 2 drive total configuration > > > > Floppy Drive Options > > 3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive > > USB Memory Key > > 512MB Dell? USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Memory Key > > > > CD-ROM, DVD, and Read-Write Devices > > 48X/32X CD-RW/DVD Combo, Data Only > > > > Speakers > > Dell? two piece stereo spkrs > > > > Resource CD > > Resources CD contains Diagnostics and Driver for Precision > > Systems > > > > Hardware Support Services > > 3 Year On-site Economy Plan > > > > Mouse Pad > > > > Quick Reference Guide > > > > TOTAL:$2,347.00 > > ========================================================= > > > > Regards, > > Ozz. > > _______________________________________________ > > Pc_support mailing list > > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support > > _______________________________________________ > Pc_support mailing list > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Tue Oct 4 13:49:35 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F118F@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Homer write: > Before you sink big bucks into an amd64 system I suggest that you > hit and/or subscribe to debian-amd64 and/or suse-amd64 pages. > The comments are voluminous, to say the least. >From a quick glance they seem to be complaining about the IA32 libs package and drivers. Drivers will improve over time and the IA32 libs package is required if you want to run 32bit software - stick to 100% 64bit and you'll be fine. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From whittake at sbaflorida.com Tue Oct 4 09:54:57 2005 From: whittake at sbaflorida.com (Homer Whittaker) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Anyone have a GeForce AGP card they want to sell? In-Reply-To: <20051003200608.15905.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051003200608.15905.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200510040954.58258.whittake@sbaflorida.com> On Monday 03 October 2005 16:06, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > As irony would have it, I have a need for a nVidia GeForce > AGP card. It can be any make, legacy, etc... -- from the > NV11 MX to a NV34 GeForce FX5200 will do. Bryan: I have a V9520/TD/N/128M that I have had for ages. You suggested that I not use it for "something" several years ago, after I complained about some of its actions. Homer > > I've lent out most of my cards, and I'm finding that a > GeForce FX5200 PCI (yes, 32-bit PCI) is tying up too much I/O > on my Abit BP6's shared PCI bus. > > BTW, I'm willing to swap 1:1, the FX5200 PCI for an AGP, if > you're looking for a PCI (not PCI-Express/PCIe, this is > 32-bit PCI) version. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 4 14:00:14 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F118B@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051004180014.67224.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > I'm looking to get an SATA drive soon, hopefully it > should boost performance in this regard. Just do _not_ get a SATA optical drive. ;-> Most SATA controllers do ATA just fine. But virtually _no_ SATA controllers handle ATAPI correctly. The new SATA optical drives use a converter, and their Windows drivers are typically hacked to only support 1 chipset (newer Intel ICH6+). -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 4 16:12:29 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] You have got to be shXXing me! Palm Watch now $30 (no longer $80)! Message-ID: <20051004201229.59554.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From the "I spent $50 too much, could have saved 60%" department: http://dealnews.com/deals/Fossil-Abacus-Wrist-PDA-w-Palm-OS-for-30-shipped/97001.html I'll take an uglier band for that kind of savings! -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Tue Oct 4 18:56:01 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (Austin Denyer (Ozz)) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <1128425101.28278.8.camel@sbaflorida> References: <20051003192822.758cbc15.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> <1128425101.28278.8.camel@sbaflorida> Message-ID: <20051004185601.6aa0d1ef.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 07:25:01 -0400, Homer Whittaker wrote: > > In re the 64 bit cpu, my personal advice is don't. I have had an amd64 > bit machine for 6 or more months now and the 64 bit stuff stinks. I now > run only 32 bit programs on the machine. I do not have Bryans technical > knowledge on why or why not but I have used (not been able to) use(d) > it. I'm sorry you've had trouble with 64-bit systems. What kind did you run? I have been running AMD64 with Debian Pure64 for over 6 months now at home, and I'm very happy with it. I am also subscribed to the Debian AMD64 list. Basically, I need to have a lot of apps open at one time (I run ten virtual desktops!) so I may up the RAM to 2 gigs. I also run some virtual systems (mainly Qemu) and so on. I've been known to code, too... I would LOVE to just buy the components and build the sucker (like I did for my home box), but I really don't have the time right now. For example, I just got home an hour ago, after being at work since 3am... The main reason I included the Dell was that my Boss is looking to buy that box unless I come up with something better within the same price range. The rest of the department run the same basic machines (Dell), but with just one Xeon processor. I looked at HP, but they were FAR more expensive than the Dell. As for SUN, well, I toyed with the idea, but decided against it. I am less than happy with the issues that the Debian SPARC ports have been experiencing recently. I don't feel that the support is there any more. For example, the issues I had recently installing Debian on a Sun Fire v210 were known issues from a year or so ago. I'm sure it's not a major issue to fix, but no-one has done it, despite numerous people suffering the same problem. Yes, I could run Solaris on it but I don't want to. I wanna run Linux . Now, I know that SUN also offer AMD processors, but again their hardware is WAY overpriced compared to the competition. I do like AMD, so I would much rather go AMD64 than Xeon. Thanks for the advice so far, guys. Regards, Ozz. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 4 20:39:54 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <20051004185601.6aa0d1ef.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <20051005003954.35177.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Austin (Ozz) Denyer" wrote: > As for SUN, well, I toyed with the idea, but decided > against it. I am less than happy with the issues that > the Debian SPARC ports have been experiencing recently. > I don't feel that the support is there any more. For > example, the issues I had recently installing Debian > on a Sun Fire v210 were known issues from a year or so ago. > I'm sure it's not a major issue to fix, but no-one has > done it, despite numerous people suffering the same problem. > Yes, I could run Solaris on it but I don't want to. I > wanna run Linux . There's your problem. ;-> Solaris is more mature than Linux in many aspects. > Now, I know that SUN also offer AMD processors, but again > their hardware is WAY overpriced compared to the > competition. Not from what I saw. You get what you pay for. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From damien at mc-kenna.com Tue Oct 4 22:44:58 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: 68-pin SCSI-SE? -- 53c895 for $10 ... In-Reply-To: <20050929011732.60501.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050929011732.60501.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43433E2A.3080804@mc-kenna.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Ironically, here's a 53c895 pull for a mere $10 (yes, ten > bucks!) from the same reseller as above, picture and all: The card arrived (took them an extra day to pack it, then three days from CA) today so I attempted to connect them all together... only to realize that the card is a SCSI BLVD with female connectors while my cable also has a female connector on that end. In effect I still can't hook 'em up together. So what can I do? I've got an BLVD card, SE cable and SE drive - will the drive and card work together at all or do I need to replace one of them (again)? -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From damien at mc-kenna.com Tue Oct 4 22:52:24 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] CentOS PCIe SATA2 FRAID card Message-ID: <43433FE8.5080706@mc-kenna.com> http://www.centos.com.tw/centos/CI_3800.htm Uses the SiI 3132: http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=32&ptid=1 "SiI 3132 also supports all Serial ATA II features, including 3.0 Gbps SATA II transfer speeds, Native Command Queuing, port multipliers with FIS-based switching, programmable output signal swing strengths for longer external cables or extended backplanes, hot plugging, enclosure management and ATAPI device support." Seems like its software / FRAID though: http://www.siliconimage.com/docs/SI_3132PB_FINAL.pdf Some nice basic specs though. No idea on pricing, nothing shows up on Google. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 5 00:43:39 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: 68-pin SCSI-SE? -- 53c895 for $10 ... In-Reply-To: <43433E2A.3080804@mc-kenna.com> References: <20050929011732.60501.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43433E2A.3080804@mc-kenna.com> Message-ID: <1128487419.5091.11.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 22:44 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > The card arrived (took them an extra day to pack it, then three days > from CA) today so I attempted to connect them all together... only to > realize that the card is a SCSI BLVD with female connectors Wide, HD 68-pin connectors -- both internal and external -- are always female on _all_ the cards I've seen -- SE, LVD, HVD, etc... Both the internal and external HD 68-pin cables are always male. While this is opposite of the internal 50-pin IDC (male card, female cable), it is the same as the newer, HD 50-pin cables which the HD 68- bit is based on. > while my cable also has a female connector on that end. I guess that's why you got the cable cheap. ;-> I have internal 68-pin SCSI SE cables if you need them. I just have to dig them up, but I have them. Heck, I even think I have a few LVD (UTP) ones too. > In effect I still can't hook 'em up together. So what can I do? If you want to drop by my house in Oviedo, I can help you with the cables. > I've got an BLVD card, SE cable and SE drive - will the drive and card > work together at all or do I need to replace one of them (again)? I've yet to see a LVD card that didn't also do SE. Here are the 4 SCSI symbols to note: http://scsifaq.paralan.com/scsifaqanswers4.html#a52 I have _never_ seen the first one (LVD without SE). Everything has been LVD (that also does SE), SE or HVD. If you have the LVD symbol with the "right dash" that's an LVD that also does SE. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 02:16:45 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: 68-pin SCSI-SE? -- 53c895 for $10 ... Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1083F0A@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Thanks, Bryan, I'll take you up on the cables tomorrow night. I got a loaner of a short 68pin cable from Kevin Korb and have verified the drive and card at least seem to work. More in the next message. -----Original Message----- From: pc_support-bounces@matrixlist.com on behalf of Bryan J. Smith Sent: Wed 10/5/2005 12:43 AM To: This is the PC Support list. Cc: Subject: Re: [Pc_Support] Re: 68-pin SCSI-SE? -- 53c895 for $10 ... On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 22:44 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > The card arrived (took them an extra day to pack it, then three days > from CA) today so I attempted to connect them all together... only to > realize that the card is a SCSI BLVD with female connectors Wide, HD 68-pin connectors -- both internal and external -- are always female on _all_ the cards I've seen -- SE, LVD, HVD, etc... Both the internal and external HD 68-pin cables are always male. While this is opposite of the internal 50-pin IDC (male card, female cable), it is the same as the newer, HD 50-pin cables which the HD 68- bit is based on. > while my cable also has a female connector on that end. I guess that's why you got the cable cheap. ;-> I have internal 68-pin SCSI SE cables if you need them. I just have to dig them up, but I have them. Heck, I even think I have a few LVD (UTP) ones too. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3351 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/attachments/20051005/4b14d313/attachment.bin From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 02:25:47 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] ATX 2.0 PSU needed Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1083F0B@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> I need a new ATX 2.0 PSU, my current one is not up to the tasks I'm asking of it. The current PSU I have in our PC is an Antec SL400. It powers a Gigabyte nForce 4 SLI motherboard with an Athlon64/3000, 512mb PC2700 DDR, two Maxtor ATA-133 drives (160gb, 80gb), an ATI X700 Pro PCI-Express video card, an LG GSA4183 DVD burner, an array of USB devices and the SCSI card I got the other day. Everything was fine this evening with the above components. Tonight I finally got the correct cabling necessary to install a DLT drive and as soon as I got it wired correctly the PCI-Express card stopped working and the motherboard started beeping when it was turned on. The weird part is that it booted twice while I was getting the card & drive set up correctly and indeed may have worked perfectly once, but on a third boot I was greeted with four short beeps and no POST signal! This was an immediate throw back to when our previous PCI-e video card gave up the ghost and was replaced with our current card. I spent a little time fiddling with different attachments to see if I could work out what was going on and finally I've tracked down the problem: the PSU isn't good enough. The PSU is an Antec SL400: http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=25400 http://www.antec.com/specs/sl400_spe.html It has a 20pin connector which suggests its ATX 1.0 rather than 2.0. Its also driving a heck of a lot of stuff that it probably isn't able for, namely the DLT drive along with the rest. So I'm on the market for a new ATX2.0 PSU. Any suggestions for something reliable but not too expensive? We've been sinking more into our PC lately than I like. Thanks. Damien From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 02:31:01 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] ATX 2.0 PSU needed Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1083F0C@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Oh yeah, forgot to mention... right now even with the DLT drive disabled I'm unable to boot from the PCI-Express card, should I take it that its dead too? I really didn't want to have to return *another* card :-( But maybe that's my lesson for not making sure I had a decent PSU? Damien -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/attachments/20051005/0cd4b1e7/attachment.bin From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 02:34:28 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX 2.0 PS for$39 AR ($69 OtD) Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1083F0D@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > CompUSA also has an Antec 500W ATX 2.0 power supply on-sale > for $59 AR. It has much higher output on the 12V1 (16A I > believe?) and 12V2 (17A I believe?), as well as one SSI WS > (aka PCIe) power 2x3 connector. Not bad for the price if you > want a true 500W (this one rates at 490W overall) without > stooping to el'chepo brand. Hey, Bryan, you think this'd be good enough for my motherload? Damien -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2891 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/attachments/20051005/3b0a877d/attachment.bin From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 02:37:32 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] ATX 2.0 PSU needed Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1083F0E@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Lastly, I should also mention that the machine gives its four warning beeps if I'm using a PCI video card and the DLT drive but does at least boot. According to my motherboard's manual, the Award BIOS gives "continuous short beeps" if there's a power problem - my board isn't continuously beeping but they are short and the sequence doesn't match any of the other sequences listed. Damien -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2604 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/attachments/20051005/c536a4d8/attachment.bin From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 5 04:30:46 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX 2.0 PS for$39 AR ($69 OtD) In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1083F0D@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1083F0D@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <1128501046.5091.14.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 02:34 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > Hey, Bryan, you think this'd be good enough for my motherload? Yeah, that 500W should be given the specs I read. Especially with the cabling options that you may not currently have. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 09:14:02 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX 2.0 PSfor$39 AR ($69 OtD) Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11A2@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 02:34 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > > Hey, Bryan, you think this'd be good enough for my motherload? > > Yeah, that 500W should be given the specs I read. > Especially with the cabling options that you may not currently have. Awesome, I'll pick it up today then. What do you think of my chances for not to have killed the video card (again)? -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 11:57:40 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Sun looking to integrate PostgreSQL! Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11B0@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> According to the executive vice president of software at Sun, they're looking to add PostgreSQL to Solaris and ultimately integrate it into the OS. Pretty darn spiffy! It may have taken them a long time but they're finally catching a modicum of common sense. http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;116679278;fp;16;fpid;0 -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 12:05:53 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Sun looking to integrate PostgreSQL! Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11B1@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> And they're also intending backing Sunbird, the Mozilla Foundation's calendar app. Good times! -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 5 12:23:06 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX 2.0 PSfor$39 AR ($69 OtD) In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11A2@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051005162306.15110.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > Awesome, I'll pick it up today then. > What do you think of my chances for not to have killed the > video card (again)? Very high. I've never lost a video card due to inadequate current. I've only had some issues with the video card / mainboard due to voltage issues -- e.g., older x1 (Matrox G200 AGP) card in newer slot. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 12:29:18 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX 2.0PSfor$39 AR ($69 OtD) Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11B4@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > Damien McKenna wrote: > > What do you think of my chances for not to have killed the > > video card (again)? > > Very high. > I've never lost a video card due to inadequate current. Any idea, then, why it has stopped working when the DLT drive is not wired up? The system doesn't give any beeps, but it also doesn't POST. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 5 12:39:51 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX 2.0PSfor$39 AR ($69 OtD) In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11B4@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051005163951.96199.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > Any idea, then, why it has stopped working when the DLT > drive is not wired up? The system doesn't give any beeps, > but it also doesn't POST. You may have caused some damage to the PS with the load, and now it's unable to provide the same load as before. That's just a guess. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 5 12:40:38 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Sun looking to integrate PostgreSQL! In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11B1@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051005164038.43938.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > And they're also intending backing Sunbird, the Mozilla > Foundation's calendar app. Good times! Sun ain't dumb. And they have certainly gained my mindshare again. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 12:44:09 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX2.0PSfor$39 AR ($69 OtD) Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11B5@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > Damien McKenna wrote: > > Any idea, then, why it has stopped working when the DLT > > drive is not wired up? The system doesn't give any beeps, > > but it also doesn't POST. > > You may have caused some damage to the PS with the load, and > now it's unable to provide the same load as before. That's > just a guess. I'll let you know after I install the new PSU, which I'm picking up tonight. They only had three left when I called in so I paid by phone and its waiting for me. Thanks again for the help, Bryan. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 5 16:09:01 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] USB IRDA widget? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11BA@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Anyone have a spare USB <-> IRDA widget they'd sell? I've got a friend who needs one for Saturday but can't find anywhere that will ship before then for less than $40. Thanks. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 5 19:45:29 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] ATI releases Radeon X1300 Pro and X1800XL, announces 1600XL and 1800XT ... Message-ID: <20051005234530.14924.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From AnandTech, ATI's X1000 series answer to nVidia's G70 series: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2552 -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Wed Oct 5 20:52:52 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (Austin Denyer (Ozz)) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations. In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F118F@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F118F@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051005205252.3e31b80f.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> OK - there has beena lot of useful info here so far - thanks Guys. Let's try approaching this from a different angle. If you could buy the system of your choice, and had a budget of around $2k (I was told to aim for around $2k, although the Dell they were talking about was $2,347 so I probably have a bit of freedom there - let's ass-u-me that $2k is the 'soft' limit and $2,347 is the 'hard' limit). What would YOU buy, and why? I'm more interested in pre-built systems here (mainly due to time constraints) but would consider building myself if the difference was sufficient to make it worthwhile. My gut feeling is that I would be better off with a single, high-GHz CPU rather than a dual-processor box. All I need is the system unit - I already have a screen, keyboard, mouse, etc. Regards, Ozz. From damien at mc-kenna.com Wed Oct 5 21:47:23 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] ATI releases Radeon X1300 Pro and X1800XL, announces 1600XL and 1800XT ... In-Reply-To: <20051005234530.14924.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051005234530.14924.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4344822B.7070407@mc-kenna.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > From AnandTech, ATI's X1000 series answer to nVidia's G70 series: Too bad they won't have the full range out for a while, they're doing a staggered release. It also seems that several of the cards aren't able to compete even against the 6xxx generation cards at the given price-points, though the features list looks good. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From damien at mc-kenna.com Wed Oct 5 22:39:53 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Antec Midsize ATX w/120mm fan and 350W ATX2.0PSfor$39 AR ($69 OtD) In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11B5@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11B5@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <43448E79.1050302@mc-kenna.com> Well I got the PSU and have just spent twenty minutes getting it installed... plugged in the DLT drive and PCI-e video card and they're all working! The mobo *is* still giving its four quick beeps when I turn on the machine, but the video and DLT drive are both working so I dunno. I'm going to contact Gigabyte to see if they have any ideas, I doubt its anything too serious but I don't want to just shrug it off. One thing about this PSU - its *sweet*, the highest quality PSU I've ever bought and it seems like its definitely worth it! The device connectors are all separate to the PSU itself, you connect them separately so you don't have to have lots of extra cables cluttering up the case - very nice. It was also nice to see they included a PCI-Express connector, just in case I upgrade the video card next year; its also strong enough that it'll easily cope with the dual-core CPU I intend upgrading to next year :-) So thanks for finding that, Bryan, it suspect it'll work out great! -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 6 08:45:56 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] RE: Antec 500W ATX 2.0 (w/PCIe) for $59 AR -- WAS: Antec Midsize ATX w/350W ATX 2.0 Message-ID: <20051006124557.44796.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Da'man McKenna wrote: > Well I got the PSU and have just spent twenty minutes > getting it installed... plugged in the DLT drive and > PCI-e video card and they're all working! Great to hear! > The mobo *is* still giving its four quick beeps when I > turn on the machine, but the video and DLT drive are > both working so I dunno. Since you said the PCIe card is working, I suppose it's not because you don't have the monitor cable connected. Some BIOSes like to bark with 3-4 quick beeps if they don't get a VESA DDC (or similar) signal from the video before POST. > I'm going to contact Gigabyte to see if they have any ideas, > I doubt its anything too serious but I don't want to just > shrug it off. It's always good to know. > One thing about this PSU - its *sweet*, the highest > quality PSU I've ever bought and it seems like its > definitely worth it! The device connectors are all > separate to the PSU itself, you connect them separately > so you don't have to have lots of extra cables cluttering > up the case - very nice. Yes, the "modular" design is becoming more and more popular. I wouldn't recommend it for a SFF case where your 5.25" drives are already "butting up against" the PS, but for a normal ATX, definitely. In fact, in this regard, I really like the Seasonic S12 500W I purchased. It has shorter cables, which many people complain about, but make it ideal for a SFF IMHO. > It was also nice to see they included a PCI-Express > connector, just in case I upgrade the video card next year; It's good to have the PCIe card on its own rail. Even the GeForce 6600GT can draw 150W and the 6800 Ultra and 7800GTX can eat up well over 200W at times. > its also strong enough that it'll easily cope with the > dual-core CPU I intend upgrading to next year :-) > So thanks for finding that, Bryan, it suspect it'll work > out great! Glad it worked out. And thanx for being the "guinnea pig" on that power supply, since I didn't buy one myself (just the Antec case w/350W ATX 2.0 PS). Seems like it's a good choice based on your experience. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 6 12:17:48 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- What would you buy? Message-ID: <20051006161748.1536.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ozzination wrote: > OK - there has beena lot of useful info here so far - > thanks Guys. > Let's try approaching this from a different angle. > If you could buy the system of your choice, and had a > budget of around $2k (I was told to aim for around > $2k, although the Dell they were talking about was > $2,347 so I probably have a bit of freedom there - > let's ass-u-me that $2k is the 'soft' limit and > $2,347 is the 'hard' limit). > What would YOU buy, and why? First off, the Dell comes with a Quadro NVS 280 video card which is really a business version of the NV34 (GeForce 5100/5200/5500). I think even the new chipset-integrated NV-C51 (GeForce 6100/6150) would be far, far better. Secondly, I haven't personally used the GeForce 61x0 chipsets yet, so I don't know if the newer Xorg drives it like any other NV4x (6000 series) card, but I think the nVidia driver might. But the good news is that it's still an nForce, ultra-compatible with kernel 2.4.23+ or 2.6.5+ (or the Red Hat backports for RHEL3/2.4.21), and it has a PCIe slot. So I'm really into those 11" x 9" x 14" MicroATX systems: http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2005/08/small-enough-form-factor-pc.html I mean, you still have 2x5.25" + 1x3.5" external and 2x3.5" internal, excellent cooling, the base 300W ATX 2.0 of the Chemning 118 was strong enough to drive a GeForce 7800GTX, and you still get 4 usable slots (just 3 less than a full ATX). > I'm more interested in pre-built systems here (mainly > due to time constraints) but would consider building > myself if the difference was sufficient to make it > worthwhile. I think I can show you it might be worth it indeed. ;-> > My gut feeling is that I would be better off with a > single, high-GHz CPU rather than a dual-processor box. On kernel 2.4, the way the kernel schedules, dual-processor or dual-core is better for lower latency (desktop or real-time). On kernel 2.6, the pre-emptive patch is standard, but DP or DC is still preferred for such usage. The ultimate is, of course, a 2x Socket-940 Opteron 2xx. But pricing is high. You _could_ build one for $2,000 easily, but I could give you something almost as good for $1,000 in SFF too. ;-> > All I need is the system unit - I already have a screen, > keyboard, mouse, etc. Okay, here's my suggestions ... Dual-core Athlon 64 w/integrated video - Chenming MATX118 Alumium MicroATX 2.0 300W $ 75 - BIOSTAR TForce6100-939 Mainboard $ 75 - Athlon 64x2 3800+ 2.0GHz/2x512K Rev. E $ 350 - (2) 1GB DDR400/PC3200 Memory $ 200 - (2) WD1600SD 160GB "Caviar RE 24x7" SATA $ 200 - LG GSA-4167B (Black) DVD-RAM/R/RW/+RW/+R DL $ 45 - Mitsumi FA404A/404M (Black) 1.44MB/9-in-1 $ 25 -------- $ 970 Options (Additional): - SysKonnect SK-9E21D PCIe-x1 GbE NIC $ 40 - GeForce 6600GT 128MB DDR PCIe-x16 $ 140 Options (Replacement): - (2) ST3250623NS 250GB "NL35 24x7" SATA $+100 - (2) WD3200SD 320GB "Caviar RE 24x7" SATA $+150 If you need GbE (10/100/1000), add in the $40 SK-9E21D which is on its own PCIe x1 channel (10/100 is on-board). If you want a faster video card, or the integrated GeForce 6100 doesn't work, go for the GeForce 6600GT 128MB DDR PCIe-x16 which works with newer Xorg releases as well as the nVidia drivers. As far as drives, I quoted the 5-year warranted, 24x7 rated 160GB "Caviar RE" drives, with an option for the 320GB versions. I also listed the 5-year warranted, 24x7 rated 250GB Seagate "NearLine 35 (NL35)" if you prefer Seagate. Dual-processor Opteron - Lian Li PCV-1200 Aluminum Flip-EATX Tower $ 200 - (various) 500-600W EPS12V Power Supply $ 100 - Tyan S2895A2NRF "Thunder K8WE" 2200+2050+8131 $ 450 - (2) Opteron 246HE 55W 2.0GHz/2x1M Rev E $ 500 - (4) 512MB Registered ECC DDR400/PC3200 Memory $ 500 - (2) WD1600SD 160GB "Caviar RE 24x7" SATA $ 200 - LG GSA-4167B (Black) DVD-RAM/R/RW/+RW/+R DL $ 45 - Mitsumi FA404A/404M (Black) 1.44MB/9-in-1 $ 25 - GeForce 6600GT 128MB DDR PCIe-x16 $ 140 ------- $2,360 Options (Additional): - 3Ware Escalade 8006-2 PCI64/66 RAID-0/1 card $ 150 Options (Replacement): - (1) Tyan S2895UA2NRF w/2x U320 SCSI $+ 75 - (2) Opteron 265 dual-core 1.8GHz/2x1M Rev E $+800 - (4) 1GB Registered ECC DDR400/PC3200 Memory $+250 - (2) ST3250623NS 250GB "NL35 24x7" SATA $+100 - (2) WD3200SD 320GB "Caviar RE 24x7" SATA $+150 The "big cost" with 2x Socket-940 Opteron 200 is the requirement of "Registered" DDR SDRAM (which might as well be ECC for little, additional cost) -- and it's not much more for 1GB DIMMs instead of 512MB DIMMs. But for maximum performance, you need four (4) DIMMs -- 2 per CPU -- for the full 256-bit wide memory bus (128-bit per CPU). The Opteron 246HE (2.0GHz/1MB) "55W low-power" are now under $250/each. The Opteron 265 (2x1.8GHz/1MB) dual-core are $650/each and probably not worth it, unless you *REALLY* need CPU power (no change in memory-I/O). ;-> You need an EPS12V power supply, but many "high-end" ($100+) ATX2.0 power supplies are now "universal" and include EPS12V converters (make sure it explicitly says EPS12V capable), and the 8-pin (2x4) "Server" and 6-pin (2x3) "Workstation" (aka PCIe) connectors are pretty standard on EPS12V capable Power Supplies. Some even have three (3) and even a rare few have four (4) +12V rails, although you're at $150+. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 6 12:29:29 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- What would you buy? In-Reply-To: <20051006161748.1536.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051006162929.44438.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > Dual-processor Opteron > - (4) 512MB Registered ECC DDR400/PC3200 Memory $ 500 > - (4) 1GB Registered ECC DDR400/PC3200 Memory $+250 > > The "big cost" with 2x Socket-940 Opteron 200 is the > requirement of "Registered" DDR SDRAM (which might as well > be ECC for little, additional cost) -- and it's not much > more for 1GB DIMMs instead of 512MB DIMMs. But for maximum > performance, you need four (4) DIMMs -- 2 per CPU -- for > the full 256-bit wide memory bus (128-bit per CPU). BTW, you _could_ go with (8) 256MB Registered ECC DDR333/PC2700 Memory modules for about $200-250, and save a good $250-300 (more than half). This will "max out" your DIMM slots to give you 2GB. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Thu Oct 6 12:37:38 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:20 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- What would you buy? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11CF@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Some extra thoughts on Bryan's suggestions. > First off, the Dell comes with a Quadro NVS 280 video card > which is really a business version of the NV34 (GeForce > 5100/5200/5500). I think even the new chipset-integrated > NV-C51 (GeForce 6100/6150) would be far, far better. .. And far, far cheaper. > Secondly, I haven't personally used the GeForce 61x0 chipsets > yet, so I don't know if the newer Xorg drives it like any > other NV4x (6000 series) card, but I think the nVidia driver > might. For a workstation best to go with a removable card for expansion abilities later on if needed, though I've not looked at these boards in much detail to know if the boards without onboard video add in enough to make it worth it. If you could get a board with e.g. gig-e built in or the nForce 4 Ultra chipset instead of video I'd recommend going for it instead. > I mean, you still have 2x5.25" + 1x3.5" external and 2x3.5" > internal, excellent cooling, the base 300W ATX 2.0 of the > Chemning 118 was strong enough to drive a GeForce 7800GTX, > and you still get 4 usable slots (just 3 less than a full > ATX). Pretty darn reasonable IMHO. Won't fit a DLT drive & DVD drive though ;-) > > My gut feeling is that I would be better off with a > > single, high-GHz CPU rather than a dual-processor box. > > On kernel 2.4, the way the kernel schedules, dual-processor > or dual-core is better for lower latency (desktop or > real-time). On kernel 2.6, the pre-emptive patch is > standard, but DP or DC is still preferred for such usage. For workstation usage I personally recommend going with dual-core over a faster, single core processor. > BTW, you _could_ go with (8) 256MB Registered ECC > DDR333/PC2700 Memory modules for about $200-250, and save a > good $250-300 (more than half). This will "max out" your > DIMM slots to give you 2GB. I'd agree with that, best to save a few hundred bucks if it won't give any more than a few bare percent speed difference. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 6 12:52:24 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- What would you buy? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F11CF@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051006165224.47133.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > For a workstation best to go with a removable card for > expansion abilities later on if needed, Understand the GeForce61x0/nForce4x0 _do_ have a _full_ PCIe x16 slot for video. For all intents and purposes, consider it an nForce4 (GF6100/nF410) or nForce4Ultra (GF6150/nF430) with "video for free." So if you're going MicroATX, unless you absolutely want a 2nd COM port, there's no reason not to buy a GF61x0/nF4x0 mainboard instead of an nForce4/4Ultra. > though I've not looked at these boards in much detail to > know if the boards without onboard video add in enough to > make it worth it. $60+ for the Socket-754. $75+ for the Socket-939. Virtually _no_ difference between them and the nForce4/4Ultra options, sometimes cheaper ironically enough. > If you could get a board with e.g. gig-e built in The versions with the nForce 430 MCP have GbE on-board: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2537&p=2 They should be out very shortly. Several mainboard vendors already show the models with them, for a sub-$100 price -- if not already. I've seen several GeForce6150 / nForce430 mainboards on pre-sale for $90. > or the nForce 4 Ultra chipset instead of video I'd recommend > going for it instead. Again, the nForce430 = nForceUltra feature-wise, so it's like you're getting the "GeForce 61x0 for free." It's just that these "available now" Biostar mainboards are only the nForce410. > Pretty darn reasonable IMHO. Won't fit a DLT drive & DVD > drive though ;-) No, but you can put in a SCSI card into one of the 2-3 PCI slots (depending on if it has a PCIe x1 slot or not, the Foxconn mainboards don't so they have 3x PCI), and the DLT drive externally. > For workstation usage I personally recommend going with > dual-core over a faster, single core processor. Then the Athlon x2 3800+ is your baby. > I'd agree with that, best to save a few hundred bucks if it > won't give any more than a few bare percent speed > difference. Just limits your expansion. BTW, I think you can find the DDR400/PC3200 ECC Registered DIMMs in 256MB for as little as $35 -- so you'd still save almost $250. I just know the DDR333/PC2700 are most commonplace for Opteron. Why? Stability largely. Because DDR400/PC3200 limits your expansion to 2 Registered DIMMs per channel, whereas DDR333/PC2700 can have 4 Reigstered DIMMs per channel. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 6 12:56:40 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- GF61x0+nF430 = nForce4Ultra In-Reply-To: <20051006165224.47133.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051006165640.52246.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > Understand the GeForce61x0/nForce4x0 _do_ have a _full_ > PCIe x16 slot for video. For all intents and purposes, > consider it an nForce4 (GF6100/nF410) or nForce4Ultra > (GF6150/nF430) with "video for free." ... cut ... > The versions with the nForce 430 MCP have GbE on-board: > http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2537&p=2 FYI: http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=GeForce+6150&btnG=Search+Froogle&scoring=p > Again, the nForce430 = nForceUltra feature-wise, so it's > like you're getting the "GeForce 61x0 for free." It's just > that these "available now" Biostar mainboards are only the > nForce410. The cool thing about the GeForce6150 is that it has HDTV component out -- including 1080p (as well as 1080i, 720p, 720i and 480p). -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Oct 7 02:26:36 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Kinda glad I held off on HDTV ... serious DLP 1080p commodization ahead? Message-ID: <20051007062636.87290.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I still have my 30" 480p/1080i that's going to keep me wishing that I had 720p as all the new XBox 360 games come out, but I'm willing to wait a little longer. I notice TI has a new DLP 1080p (1920x1080@60Hz) engine out now, and there are some pretty sweet DLP projection TVs coming down the pipe. This includes the Tohsiba 195 series: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050909/nef006.html It only only does 1080p (as well as 1080i, 720p, 540p, 480p and 480i), which is what the new PS3 supports, but has numerous digital (as well as analog) inputs/outputs on-board. This includes dual-HDMI, optical audio and dual-IEEE1394 firewire. QAM/CableCard and Terrestrial-ATSC tuners are included. The "MX" versions ($300 list upgrade) advertise home networking capability, so you can connect to PCs and display pictures, play MP3s, etc... This has got to be a new, Single Board Computer (SBC) design that brings costs down. It wouldn't surprise me if either TI or Toshiba is licensing it. So this probably means that DLP will likely undergoing some semi-serious "commodization" in the next 9-12 months. As such, I think next summer is when I'll start targetting a HDTV purchase again. For now, the entry 56" 56HM195 lists at $3,199, but is already close to $2,400 on-line. At 87lbs., shipping is far more affordable than any projection of similar size, or even a 27" CRT (around $100-150 typical). Sears was offering free shipping (although it was still selling at the list price, $3,199). -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Oct 9 01:09:18 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Flipped ATX Cases Gone Mainstream ... Message-ID: <1128834558.4990.27.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Just a blog entry follow-up to my various posts since last fall and this past April (after the Tom's Hardware Review). http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2005/10/flipped-atx-cases-gone-mainstream.html -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Oct 9 01:17:36 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations -- Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <20051006161748.1536.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051006161748.1536.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1128835056.4990.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 09:17 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Dual-processor Opteron > - Lian Li PCV-1200 Aluminum Flip-EATX Tower $ 200 > - (various) 500-600W EPS12V Power Supply $ 100 > - Tyan S2895A2NRF "Thunder K8WE" 2200+2050+8131 $ 450 > - (2) Opteron 246HE 55W 2.0GHz/2x1M Rev E $ 500 > - (4) 512MB Registered ECC DDR400/PC3200 Memory $ 500 > - (2) WD1600SD 160GB "Caviar RE 24x7" SATA $ 200 > - LG GSA-4167B (Black) DVD-RAM/R/RW/+RW/+R DL $ 45 > - Mitsumi FA404A/404M (Black) 1.44MB/9-in-1 $ 25 > - GeForce 6600GT 128MB DDR PCIe-x16 $ 140 > ------- > $2,360 Let's revisit that with the Aerocool Spiral Galaxies case and 256MB Registered DDR333 SDRAM ... Dual-processor Opteron - Aerocool Spiral Galaxies Flipped ATX Case $ 100 - (various) 500-600W EPS12V Power Supply $ 100 - Tyan S2895A2NRF "Thunder K8WE" 2200+2050+8131 $ 450 - (2) Opteron 246HE 55W 2.0GHz/2x1M Rev E $ 500 - (8) 256MB Registered ECC DDR333/PC2700 Memory $ 240 - (2) WD1600SD 160GB "Caviar RE 24x7" SATA $ 200 - LG GSA-4167B (Black) DVD-RAM/R/RW/+RW/+R DL $ 45 - Mitsumi FA404A/404M (Black) 1.44MB/9-in-1 $ 25 - GeForce 6600GT 128MB DDR PCIe-x16 $ 140 ------- $2,000 > Options (Additional): > - 3Ware Escalade 8006-2 PCI64/66 RAID-0/1 card $ 150 > Options (Replacement): > - (1) Tyan S2895UA2NRF w/2x U320 SCSI $+ 75 > - (2) Opteron 265 dual-core 1.8GHz/2x1M Rev E $+800 > - (4) 1GB Registered ECC DDR400/PC3200 Memory $+250 > - (2) ST3250623NS 250GB "NL35 24x7" SATA $+100 > - (2) WD3200SD 320GB "Caviar RE 24x7" SATA $+150 Now if we could only shave off a little more, you could go dual-Socket w/dual-Core bay-bee! -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From tracy at airtalk.net Sun Oct 9 12:17:58 2005 From: tracy at airtalk.net (Tracy Markham) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] 3ware at a discount ? :D Message-ID: <20051009161759.70351.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> Where is the best deal on a simple 3ware PCI32 2 channel SATA RAID card? (raid 1 or 0 ...) Anyone have one used they wanna let go of? Tracy N4LGH From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Oct 9 12:55:01 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: 3ware at a discount ? :D -- 3Ware Escalade 8006-2 pulls for $89 In-Reply-To: <20051009161759.70351.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051009161759.70351.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1128876901.4990.67.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-10-09 at 09:17 -0700, Tracy Markham wrote: > Where is the best deal on a simple 3ware PCI32 2 > channel SATA RAID card? (raid 1 or 0 ...) Weirdstuff has a few Escalade 8006-2 pulls left for $89: http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=14205 [ If you want one new, you can usually find them for $119+ on Froogle from Directron, Monarch Computer, etc... ] Also note the 8000-2 is an option, it just doesn't do 66MHz PCI (the 8006/8506 series are 64-bit PCI @ 66MHz, 8000/8500 series are 64-bit PCI @ 33MHz. Both work in 32-bit @ 33MHz PCI slots without issue, and are _universally_ keyed (3.3V and 5V compatible). You can get release 7.7.1 CD (13MB iso image) from 3Ware: http://www.3ware.com/support/download.asp?code=8&id=7.7.1&softtype=Complete+7.7.1+CodeSet+Release+ISO Be sure to: - Update to latest firmware (7.7.1 = 1.08.00.048 BIOS at POST) - Install the driver in your OS - Install the 3DM utility in your OS NOTE: The 7.7.1 firmware is very mature and has been out quite awhile now (couple years?). I trust it explicitly. Also note the newer, cooler 3DM2 utility for the 9000 series actually works with the 7000/8000 series too (at least under Linux): http://www.3ware.com/support/download.asp?code=9&id=9.2.1.1&softtype=3DM2+Management+Utility > Anyone have one used they wanna let go of? For the most part, 3Ware Escalade 6000+ are keepers. ;-> -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From jasonb at edseek.com Sun Oct 9 16:05:58 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: 3ware at a discount ? :D -- 3Ware Escalade 8006-2 pulls for $89 In-Reply-To: <1128876901.4990.67.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <20051009161759.70351.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> <1128876901.4990.67.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <200510091605.58101.jasonb@edseek.com> On Sunday 09 October 2005 12:55, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > For the most part, 3Ware Escalade 6000+ are keepers. ;-> I wish. My second 6200 appears to be DoA from Ebay. I tried setting it up last night and was getting random segfaults. Everything's fine when I revert to the original ATA for /home and SCSI for /, ect setup. It was only ~ $20. Waste of several hours, though. -- Jason Boxman http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Oct 9 16:25:00 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: 3ware at a discount ? :D -- 3Ware Escalade 8006-2 pulls for $89 In-Reply-To: <200510091605.58101.jasonb@edseek.com> References: <20051009161759.70351.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> <1128876901.4990.67.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <200510091605.58101.jasonb@edseek.com> Message-ID: <1128889500.4990.78.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-10-09 at 16:05 -0400, Jason Boxman wrote: > I wish. My second 6200 appears to be DoA from Ebay. I tried setting it up > last night and was getting random segfaults. Everything's fine when I revert > to the original ATA for /home and SCSI for /, ect setup. It was only ~ $20. > Waste of several hours, though. Well, eBay is a whole different ballgame. But at least when you buy a pull from a reseller, they will replace anything DoA. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From jasonb at edseek.com Sun Oct 9 16:52:18 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: 3ware at a discount ? :D -- 3Ware Escalade 8006-2 pulls for $89 In-Reply-To: <1128889500.4990.78.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <20051009161759.70351.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> <200510091605.58101.jasonb@edseek.com> <1128889500.4990.78.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <200510091652.18354.jasonb@edseek.com> On Sunday 09 October 2005 16:25, you wrote: > On Sun, 2005-10-09 at 16:05 -0400, Jason Boxman wrote: > > I wish. My second 6200 appears to be DoA from Ebay. I tried setting it > > up last night and was getting random segfaults. Everything's fine when I > > revert to the original ATA for /home and SCSI for /, ect setup. It was > > only ~ $20. Waste of several hours, though. > > Well, eBay is a whole different ballgame. > > But at least when you buy a pull from a reseller, they will replace > anything DoA. Yep, it was totally my bad. Oh well. :) -- Jason Boxman http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Oct 9 23:45:05 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Anyone have a GeForce AGP card they want to sell? (Solved) Message-ID: <20051010034506.59737.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > As irony would have it, I have a need for a nVidia GeForce > AGP card. It can be any make, legacy, etc... -- from the > NV11 MX to a NV34 GeForce FX5200 will do. > I've lent out most of my cards, and I'm finding that a > GeForce FX5200 PCI (yes, 32-bit PCI) is tying up too much > I/O on my Abit BP6's shared PCI bus. > BTW, I'm willing to swap 1:1, the FX5200 PCI for an AGP, if > you're looking for a PCI (not PCI-Express/PCIe, this is > 32-bit PCI) version. Okay, after some investigation, I ended up getting a cheap GeForce4 MX4000 series (NV18/19). These are often low-trace (64-bit) GeForce2 cores that perform little better than old GeForce2 MX ICs. But they do work at AGP x2/x4. That was most important. You have to be careful with anything NV3x (GF-FX) or newer like the NV4x (GF-6xxx) which seem to be AGP x8-only. And even the NV18 (GF4-MX8x) and NV28 (GF4-Ti8x) are designed for AGP x8, and might not do AGP x2/x4. The NV17 (GF4-MX) and NV25 (GF4-Ti) were designed for AGP x2/x4, although the newer revision NV18/28 were not. But apparently the NV18 (NV19?) MX4000 still supports AGP x2/x4. It's clear a cheap option for OEMs where performance is not required. Just FYI in case you go upgrading video cards. It's not worth it unless you have an AGP3.0 (x8) mainboard, or better yet, just go PCIe x16 and solve the problem once-and-for-all. Especially with the C51/GeForce 61x0-integrated chipsets starting at $60 for new S754/939 mainboards. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Mon Oct 10 10:26:44 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Seagate introduces new product range, 7200.9 Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1228@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2559 New drives from Seagate covering everything from 40gb to 500gb. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Mon Oct 10 10:32:00 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Seagate introduces new product range, 7200.9 Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F122D@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> >From the article: Seagate states that it has incorporated all of the features that SATA has to offer in the 7200.9 series including the following: * Hot Plug * Hot Swap * eSATA * ClickConnect * Native Command Queuing (NCQ) * Staggered Spin-Up * 3G (3.0Gb/sec, backwards compatible with 1.5Gb/sec hardware) maximum transfer rates Nice! Availability seems a little low right now, though it should pick up in plenty of time for the holiday season. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Mon Oct 10 12:48:24 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hardware recommendations -- Revisited ... Message-ID: <37828.69.176.47.130.1128962904.squirrel@www.ozz.is-a-geek.net> Hmmm - interesting stuff. One concern I have is the case - I saw quite a few complaints that the flipped design combined with the height of the case caused problems with the psu cables not reaching the mobo plugs... > Let's revisit that with the Aerocool Spiral Galaxies case and 256MB > Registered DDR333 SDRAM ... > > Dual-processor Opteron > - Aerocool Spiral Galaxies Flipped ATX Case $ 100 > - (various) 500-600W EPS12V Power Supply $ 100 > - Tyan S2895A2NRF "Thunder K8WE" 2200+2050+8131 $ 450 > - (2) Opteron 246HE 55W 2.0GHz/2x1M Rev E $ 500 > - (8) 256MB Registered ECC DDR333/PC2700 Memory $ 240 > - (2) WD1600SD 160GB "Caviar RE 24x7" SATA $ 200 > - LG GSA-4167B (Black) DVD-RAM/R/RW/+RW/+R DL $ 45 > - Mitsumi FA404A/404M (Black) 1.44MB/9-in-1 $ 25 > - GeForce 6600GT 128MB DDR PCIe-x16 $ 140 > ------- > $2,000 I make that $1,800, which is even better. As for the dual-core option, that would be sweet, but I'd need to be able to shave another $300 off the price. Hopefully I'll be ready to order soon... Thanks guys. Regards, Ozz. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 10 15:03:06 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <37828.69.176.47.130.1128962904.squirrel@www.ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <20051010190306.27779.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net wrote: > One concern I have is the case - I saw quite a few > complaints that the flipped design combined with the > height of the case caused problems with > the psu cables not reaching the mobo plugs... Yep, that's an issue with the designs that still put the PS at the top. Seasonic S12s are popular, but also known for their short cable lengths. Luckily, there are extenders, and with the new, 2-3 multi-rail +12V lines, the wire gages are more than adequate these days. > I make that $1,800, which is even better. Damn, I just can't add. > As for the dual-core option, that would be sweet, but I'd > need to be able to shave another $300 off the price. You were already looking at dual-Xeon for $2,300 from Dell, what more do you want? @-ppp > Hopefully I'll be ready to order soon... In the end, an $600 MicroATX does the job, or $1,000 dual-core model. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Tue Oct 11 05:16:17 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (Austin Denyer (Ozz)) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <20051010190306.27779.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <37828.69.176.47.130.1128962904.squirrel@www.ozz.is-a-geek.net> <20051010190306.27779.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051011051617.4f883936.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:03:06 -0700 (PDT), "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > > ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net wrote: > > One concern I have is the case - I saw quite a few > > complaints that the flipped design combined with the > > height of the case caused problems with > > the psu cables not reaching the mobo plugs... > > Yep, that's an issue with the designs that still put the PS > at the top. Seasonic S12s are popular, but also known for > their short cable lengths. Luckily, there are extenders, and > with the new, 2-3 multi-rail +12V lines, the wire gages are > more than adequate these days. The Tyan board looks like it has the power connectors near the center of the board, so it may not be such an issue there. > > I make that $1,800, which is even better. > > Damn, I just can't add. > > > As for the dual-core option, that would be sweet, but I'd > > need to be able to shave another $300 off the price. > > You were already looking at dual-Xeon for $2,300 from Dell, > what more do you want? @-ppp The Dual core would have pushed it to $2,600. > > Hopefully I'll be ready to order soon... > > In the end, an $600 MicroATX does the job, or $1,000 > dual-core model. It looks like I'm gonna wind up with a pre-built box after all, but customized towards the suggestions here. This is what I'm looking at right now: 1 x Thermaltake Xaser III V1000A Tower $125.00 1 x PS 550W - Enermax EG651P-VE-24P ATX-EPS/S $102.00 1 x Tyan S2895A2NRF K8WE Audio/GB-LAN/IEEE-13 $407.00 2 x AMD Opteron 246 2.0GHz 1MB 64/32 Bit $450.00 2 x Thermaltake A1770 AMD Opteron/64 Heatsink $ 56.00 2 x DDR (266) 2100 REG ECC - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) $288.00 2 x Western Digital Caviar SE 200 GB SATAII $192.00 1 x DVD?RW - NEC ND-3540A 16X Dual Layer DVD? $ 46.00 1 x TEAC 1.44 MB 3.5" Floppy Drive (Black) $ 18.00 1 x eVGA GeForce 6600 GT 128MB DDR3/PCI-E/TV- $165.00 1 x Thermaltake 80mm Ball Bearing DC Fan $ 9.99 1 x Logitech X-120 Multimedia PC Speakers $ 25.00 ======== $1883.99 Plus a few extra bits n pieces that take it to $2,005. Thanks to all who helped with the decision. Regards, Ozz. From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Tue Oct 11 07:40:26 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <20051011051617.4f883936.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> References: <37828.69.176.47.130.1128962904.squirrel@www.ozz.is-a-geek.net> <20051010190306.27779.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051011051617.4f883936.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <42620.69.176.47.130.1129030826.squirrel@www.ozz.is-a-geek.net> Oops - wrong RAM... Should be: DDR (333) 2700 REG ECC - 2 GB (4 pcs 512) $300.00 Regards, Ozz. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 13 20:27:49 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <20051011051617.4f883936.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> References: <37828.69.176.47.130.1128962904.squirrel@www.ozz.is-a-geek.net> <20051010190306.27779.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051011051617.4f883936.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <1129249670.4931.7.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-10-11 at 05:16 -0400, Austin Denyer wrote: > 2 x DDR (266) 2100 REG ECC - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) $288.00 You want at least 2x DDR _per_ Socket-940 (4 total). Otherwise you're _halving_ your all-important memory bandwidth. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Thu Oct 13 21:26:51 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (Austin Denyer (Ozz)) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Hardware recommendations -- Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <1129249670.4931.7.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <37828.69.176.47.130.1128962904.squirrel@www.ozz.is-a-geek.net> <20051010190306.27779.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20051011051617.4f883936.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> <1129249670.4931.7.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <20051013212651.7eaf2ce7.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:27:49 -0500, "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-10-11 at 05:16 -0400, Austin Denyer wrote: > > 2 x DDR (266) 2100 REG ECC - 1 GB (2 pcs 512) $288.00 > > You want at least 2x DDR _per_ Socket-940 (4 total). > Otherwise you're _halving_ your all-important memory bandwidth. That's what I did. It's not too clear from my post (I just copied it from the spec page) - I got 4 sticks of 512 Meg DDR (333) 2700 REG ECC - 2 GB total. I can't wait for it to arrive... Regards, Ozz. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Oct 14 01:07:20 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Retro Windows Gaming System: P3-866, 512MB, Voodoo3 16MB AGP TV-Out Message-ID: <1129266440.4967.8.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> In my quest to clean up all my old systems, I've given various components away, but also come close to finishing off a couple of specialized systems. One is my old Abit BP6 dual-Celeron 466MHz, which has 768MB of PC100 Registered ECC SDRAM and (2) hot-swappable HD bays (HPT366) as well as an earlier generation GSA-4081 (DVD-RAM/R/RW/+R/+RW). It is in that black Antec ATX case with an older 435W Enermax ATX 1.0 PS. Another is an old Tyan S1854 (late rev.) P3-866MHz, which has 512MB of PC133 SDRAM and (1) 40GB Western Digital HD and a Panasonic DVD-RAM/R/RW drive. It's in the smallest ATX form-factor case I've ever had, with a 350W Antec ATX 1.0 PS. The PS is just above the CPU area -- not enough good for new CPU fansinks, but good enough for the Intel OEM fansink. The 80mm outtake fan on the PS spins at 1,000rpm, and the CPU fan is not audible either, making the system very, very quiet. The Voodoo3 16MB AGP TV-Out is connected to my Philips 480p/1080i, which has 1050 lines of horizontal resolution. The 480i TV output (640x480) is extremely clear, as it clearly doubles the inputs to seem like "flicker free" 480p. Unfortunately, when I push 800x600, it's still only S-Video out, so it's not quite a nice looking. The system is completely manageable -- from BIOS to Windows -- via the TV-Out. I'll be loading some of my old favorite games, especially older Glide games, most of which run on the Voodoo3 (only a select few require a true Voodoo or Voodoo2). My Compaq wireless keyboard/mouse provides the needed input, although I'm looking for a wireless gamepad. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Oct 14 01:30:02 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: USB backups -- for 4-7GB, DVD-R is ideal ... In-Reply-To: <20051014024926.C01DA299DB@xprdmailfe21.nwk.excite.com> References: <20051014024926.C01DA299DB@xprdmailfe21.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: <1129267802.4967.25.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 22:49 -0400, Sally Welch wrote: > Bryan, > I have searched your blog and didn't find the answer to my question. I just started it a few months ago. Sooner or later I'll dump a good decade of past info into it. > Could you please give me your advice? I work with a small business that > has a Linux server and 2 Windows XP workstations. I am backing up > workstation data to the server, but offsite backups are needed. The > owner doesn't want the data backed up to a server elsewhere since he > doesn't own these other servers (privacy/security concerns). > There is currently about 4-7gb data to backup. What has a native capacity of 4.7GB (4.35GiB), costs only $45 for the drive, is less than $0.25 per unit media and works 100% with Linux? An LG GSA-4167B (Black): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827136063 They also have a Beige version: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827136064 If you want to save a few bucks ($3-5), you can go with the older GSA-4165 or 4163 series (do _not_ buy a refurb though, they never last). Some of the earlier 416x just don't do some of the higher speed dual- layer, although they _all_ do 16x DVD-R and DVD+R recording. If you need a backup program, my old "back2cd" works for DVDs as well as CDs. I get about 9-12GB on a single DVD-R: http://www.samag.com/documents/sam0204c/ > The owner was thinking about purchasing two external hard drives for > backups. One of the drives would be taken home for offsite storage on > an alternating basis. I like the idea, but I am concerned that > backups would take a long time with the 2.0 USB hard drives being > considered. The main issue is the reliability of _off-line_ ATA drives and their intolerance to _shock_. But if you still want to go that way, the new Seagate NL35 ("Near-Line") drives are the best you'll get. http://www.samag.com/documents/sam0509a/0509a_s1.htm [ As part of this main article on network backup: http://www.samag.com/documents/sam0509a/ ] BTW, FireWire tends to have better, sustained transfer rates. I won't get into the long engineering babble on why. ;-> > Would flash memory be better? No, definitely _not_! They are _slower_ because EEPROM takes a long time to write. And you _only_ get 1,000 writes per cell on average. Yes, the solid state EEPROM solves the reliability of high-density platters, but they introduce a performance and rewrite lifetime issue. > I see 4gb USB memory sticks for $230 or so, though they would probably > need four of these. There are a couple USB ports available on the > workstation, and two more on the keyboard. > I believe that speed of backups will be much more important to the > users than the disparity in price between USB hard drives and USB > memory sticks. The smaller size of the sticks would be an added > bonus. EEPROM writes are typically _slower_ than today's bursting hard drives. Granted, USB 2.0 is more of the "bottleneck" issue, which puts EEPROM and fixed disk on the same field of performance, but I would not go the EEPROM route. > Is there something that I am not considering? What do you advise? DVD-R If you record DVD-R via cdrecord+DVDpatch (standard with most 2.6 distros, and many late 2.4 distros) in disc-at-once (DaO) mode, you get a media that will last 10+ years. It's also very portable and cheap. Also note that you can use my script to just master the .iso files, then record them to DVD-R on whatever system you want. I.e., you could put LG GSA-4167 drives in all systems. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Oct 14 01:46:15 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Talking with a client about cheap storage In-Reply-To: <1129263392.6469.14.camel@lin-workstation.azapple.com> References: <1129166440.2349.185.camel@lin-workstation.azapple.com> <1129263392.6469.14.camel@lin-workstation.azapple.com> Message-ID: <1129268775.4967.40.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 21:16 -0700, Craig White wrote: > > Thinking that I would get perhaps 2 external 4 drive or 1-8 drive > > enclosure with the above card... > > > > 1 - is it a dog in RAID 5 ? Hardly. The XScale superscalar microprocessor pushes some serious data around. > > 2 - other than the mess of 8 cables between external enclosure and LSI > > card, is there something else I have to consider? There are multi-lane concentrators for SATA, pioneered by 3Ware, that turns 4 ports into 1 cable. But if you're concerned about external cabling, then consider SAS (Serial Attached SCSI) instead. Most SAS cards not only do SATA as well as SAS drives, but they typically have hardware RAID-0, 1, 1e and/or 10 built-in. > > 3 - I would expect this to work with CentOS 4.x - I have been able to > > get the CERC controller to work no problem. Any fears ? LSI Logic has been excellent at supporting Linux, their newer XScale products included. Not totally satisfied with their monitoring tools in Linux though, but they are far, far better than the majority out there (sans 3Ware). BTW, 3Ware has introduced a real _powerful_ card in the Escalade 9550SX series with a serious PowerPC embedded microprocessor on-board. It's the same cost as the existing 9500S series, but moves 2x as much data in RAID-5 thanx to the PPC. The only kicker with 3Ware is that I typically wait 6-9 months for their firmware to "shake out." http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata2-9000.asp They can also do PCI-X @ 133MHz. The previous 8506 and 9500S only did 64-bit PCI @ 66MHz. > didn't get a reply to this but sometimes your emails end up in my > spambox (think that your yahoo account scores fairly close to spam) and > usually, you are very quick to reply. Sorry, I work about 12-16 hours/day, and in many cases, I work a spurt of 8-10 hours without a break. -- Bryan CC: PC_Support list (where I typically post on hardware) -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From damien at mc-kenna.com Fri Oct 14 22:02:42 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] AMD spouts marketing speak regarding future plans Message-ID: <43506342.60806@mc-kenna.com> http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2565 Lots of buzz words. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Oct 15 10:43:05 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] AMD spouts marketing speak regarding future plans In-Reply-To: <43506342.60806@mc-kenna.com> References: <43506342.60806@mc-kenna.com> Message-ID: <1129387385.4933.5.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 22:02 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2565 > Lots of buzz words. Yes bay-bee! This is what I was hoping for! 2007+ is when new AMD64 extensions will _break_ i486 TLB compatibility, and move beyond the current 48-bit/PAE52 approach. It will do this in its multi-core, virtualized, partitioned processor, which can instantiate individual 48-bit/PAE52 and 32-bit/PAE36 virtual processors. This will indeed bring more capabilities while each virtualized processor will remain fully compatible with existing x86-64 and i486 ISA while also offering mainframe-class reliability. Intel is not even looking at this, is playing games with their extremely aging Pentium M (PPro-P3) based core through 2007+. I'm sure AMD's is not going to share how they are doing this, and Intel will once again fall beyond and saved only by their fabrication technology lead. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Oct 15 10:50:34 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Conspiracy... What conspiracy? -- a double-standard? In-Reply-To: <4enk8j$96a1uj@mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4enk8j$96a1uj@mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> Message-ID: <1129387835.4933.13.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 11:14 -0500, William Underwood wrote: > Samsung to pay $300M fine for DRAM price fixing > It will plead guilty to being part of an 'international conspiracy' > http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,105431,00.html > Thought it might interest some of you.... At first, I was happy to see this, because the Asian rim of company have kept prices artificially high using various excuses. They've gone from razor-thin margins or even running fabs at a loss (because it's more of a loss to shut them down) to healthy profits. But then I thought about things again. First off, we're talking extremely massive volumes and in many cases, the profits they make on memory are _less_ than the profits Dell, Gateway and other Tier-1 OEMs make on memory mark-up in their systems. Now keep that in mind as we look at where the complaints are coming from -- Dell, Gateway and other Tier-1 OEMs. *SO*, if Dell, Gateway, etc... are allowed to complain about the Asian rim of companies who run multi-billion dollar fabs that lose money for 3 years, then make a healthy profit for 3 years, etc..., then *CONSUMERS* should have the right to hold Dell, Gateway and other Tier-1 OEMs to the _same_standard_ when we go to configure a system and we pay 2-3x the price for the _exact_same_ memory than we can get directly from Crucial, Infineon, etc... Sometimes I think consumers are merely prey for the massive number of lawyers in this country, and they do little for us. Yes, price fixing did occur. And yes, people profited, but how "fair" is it that we have only penalized companies based outside the US, and not the ones based on the US that pull the same non-sense, and often using foreign products anyway? Or maybe that's just my Libertarian views getting in the way of good regulation. I don't know, still seems like a double-standard. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Oct 15 16:26:28 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bryan=20J=2E=20Smith?=) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?[Pc=5FSupport]_Windows_XP_VPN_Usage?= Message-ID: I've seen this exact issue many times. In a nutshell, the VPN client is misconfigured, typically because it is not allowing the default route out to the Internet. What VPN client? -----Original Message----- From: Tim McDonough Date: 05-9-26 16:13 To: This is the PC Support list. Subj: [Pc_Support] Windows XP VPN Usage I use a VPN connection from a Windows XP machine here at home to connect to our office so I can run an application that needsthe database at work. The VPN disconnects if I use my local web browser at the same time. Is this supposed to happen for security related reasons or do I perhaps have something mis-configured? -- Tim _______________________________________________ Pc_support mailing list Pc_support@matrixlist.com http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support From tim at mcdonough.net Sat Oct 15 17:28:48 2005 From: tim at mcdonough.net (Tim McDonough) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Windows XP VPN Usage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43517490.90906@mcdonough.net> The one that's built in to Windows XP Pro. Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I've seen this exact issue many times. In a nutshell, the VPN client is misconfigured, typically because it is not allowing the default route out to the Internet. > > What VPN client? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim McDonough > Date: 05-9-26 16:13 > To: This is the PC Support list. > Subj: [Pc_Support] Windows XP VPN Usage > > I use a VPN connection from a Windows XP machine here at home to > connect to our office so I can run an application that needsthe > database at work. The VPN disconnects if I use my local web browser at > the same time. > > Is this supposed to happen for security related reasons or do I > perhaps have something mis-configured? > -- Tim From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Oct 16 21:35:01 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] AMD outsells Intel on US retail shelf for a full month for the first time ever ... Message-ID: <1129512901.5233.14.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Interesting results for 2005 September retail sales: http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/10/14/amd_outsells_intel/index.html Sure enough, it was HP who was largely responsible for AMD's success. As I have repeatedly stated, HP has been the sole Tier-1 that has been the AMD thorn in Intel's side. But while Intel has been beating HP to drop their AMD Opteron server sales from over a 30% share to under 10% on the business front, AMD quietly took control of the Media PC on the consumer shelf right under Intel's noses. Interesting fact that 46% of all US retail desktops were Media PCs. I wouldn't have guessed that, but it seems AMD -- or at least HP -- _might_ know their market a bit better than Intel, Dell and the mail order channels, eh? ;-> My, my how the market changes. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From damien at mc-kenna.com Sun Oct 16 22:59:30 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] AMD outsells Intel on US retail shelf for a full month for the first time ever ... In-Reply-To: <1129512901.5233.14.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1129512901.5233.14.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <43531392.7040207@mc-kenna.com> I thought they'd done it before, during early 2004? -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From m9u35g at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 00:35:39 2005 From: m9u35g at gmail.com (Justin M. Keyes) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Conspiracy... What conspiracy? -- a double-standard? In-Reply-To: <1129387835.4933.13.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <4enk8j$96a1uj@mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> <1129387835.4933.13.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46f680d0510162135v61caf4a1ud646ac5bde4c073d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/15/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Or maybe that's just my Libertarian views getting in the way of good > regulation. I don't know, still seems like a double-standard. There's no such thing as good regulation, or "price-fixing", and the government doesn't have a right to tell a company how it may price its goods. Sounds like your [lL]ibertarian views aren't getting in the way enough ;p -- Justin Keyes From jasonb at edseek.com Mon Oct 17 03:15:18 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Conspiracy... What conspiracy? -- a double-standard? In-Reply-To: <46f680d0510162135v61caf4a1ud646ac5bde4c073d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4enk8j$96a1uj@mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> <1129387835.4933.13.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <46f680d0510162135v61caf4a1ud646ac5bde4c073d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510170315.18766.jasonb@edseek.com> On Monday 17 October 2005 00:35, Justin M. Keyes wrote: > On 10/15/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > Or maybe that's just my Libertarian views getting in the way of good > > regulation. I don't know, still seems like a double-standard. > > There's no such thing as good regulation, or "price-fixing", and the > government doesn't have a right to tell a company how it may price its > goods. Sounds like your [lL]ibertarian views aren't getting in the way > enough ;p Off-topic, but I appreciate not dying from random drugs that may or may not work as a drug company chooses to claim were there only the free market in effect. -- Jason Boxman http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff From m9u35g at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 03:40:47 2005 From: m9u35g at gmail.com (Justin M. Keyes) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Conspiracy... What conspiracy? -- a double-standard? In-Reply-To: <200510170315.18766.jasonb@edseek.com> References: <4enk8j$96a1uj@mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> <1129387835.4933.13.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <46f680d0510162135v61caf4a1ud646ac5bde4c073d@mail.gmail.com> <200510170315.18766.jasonb@edseek.com> Message-ID: <46f680d0510170040kfddb92uff1addc14c6b5f01@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Jason Boxman wrote: > On Monday 17 October 2005 00:35, Justin M. Keyes wrote: > > On 10/15/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > > Or maybe that's just my Libertarian views getting in the way of good > > > regulation. I don't know, still seems like a double-standard. > > > > There's no such thing as good regulation, or "price-fixing", and the > > government doesn't have a right to tell a company how it may price its > > goods. Sounds like your [lL]ibertarian views aren't getting in the way > > enough ;p > > Off-topic, but I appreciate not dying from random drugs that may or may not > work as a drug company chooses to claim were there only the free market in > effect. I like to make my own choices -- Justin Keyes From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 17 09:37:40 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] AMD outsells Intel on US retail shelf for a full month for the first time ever ... In-Reply-To: <43531392.7040207@mc-kenna.com> Message-ID: <20051017133740.10960.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > I thought they'd done it before, during early 2004? According to the article, AMD has outsold Intel a few weeks before, but never a full month. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Mon Oct 17 09:40:25 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Conspiracy... What conspiracy? -- adouble-standard? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F12F1@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > > Off-topic, but I appreciate not dying from random drugs > > that may or may not work as a drug company chooses to claim were > > there only the free market in effect. > > I like to make my own choices Glad to see you've never visited a doctor's office in the past twenty years. Last year I was given one drug for asthma by a doctor. Shortly there after I developed a nasty ailment, had several visits to the same doctor and specialists to work out what the ailment was. I finally realized the ailment was a reaction to the drug I was given so I stopped taking it. A month or so later returned to the doctor with more asthma problems and was given *exactly* *the* *same* *drug*. Needless to say I didn't take it and I've not been back to that doctor since. How many other people consult with doctors on an ailment and are given drugs that later turn out to have major side effects - the media these days is full of court cases regarding similar problems. How many doctors are still saying that recalled drugs e.g. Vioxx, are safe when people have died from taking it? Freedom of choice doesn't make much difference if you don't have the information available to make your decision, or if the healthcare providers (e.g. doctors, hospitals) are getting paid by the pharmaceutical companies to push their products. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From m9u35g at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 10:55:31 2005 From: m9u35g at gmail.com (Justin M. Keyes) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Conspiracy... What conspiracy? -- adouble-standard? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F12F1@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F12F1@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <46f680d0510170755w77ad23c3y644b1569df9ebd38@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/05, Damien McKenna wrote: > > > Off-topic, but I appreciate not dying from random drugs > > > that may or may not work as a drug company chooses to claim were > > > there only the free market in effect. > > > > I like to make my own choices > > Glad to see you've never visited a doctor's office in the past twenty > years. The FDA has existed for all of that time. > Last year I was given one drug for asthma by a doctor. Shortly there > after I developed a nasty ailment, had several visits to the same doctor > and specialists to work out what the ailment was. I finally realized > the ailment was a reaction to the drug I was given so I stopped taking > it. A month or so later returned to the doctor with more asthma > problems and was given *exactly* *the* *same* *drug*. Needless to say I > didn't take it and I've not been back to that doctor since. > > How many other people consult with doctors on an ailment and are given > drugs that later turn out to have major side effects - So the government didn't protect them, or you, and they still have to make their own decisions, educate themselves, use references, depend on consumer watchdogs (not the government), and, if the FDA didn't exist, we would have private organizations that would review and "approve" drugs and let you decide whether you care about that approval. And the freedom to take risk, if we choose. > the media these days is full of court cases regarding similar problems. The media isn't controlled by the government, but it alerts consumers. > How many > doctors are still saying that recalled drugs e.g. Vioxx, are safe when > people have died from taking it? I thought the government protected you from having to make decisions? > Freedom of choice doesn't make much > difference if you don't have the information available to make your decision, That's not at all contingent on the government having the power to tell me (at gunpoint) that I'm not allowed to purchase a drug they don't approve of (for instance, an experimental drug that may cure a terminal illness). Informed decisions, approval committees, corporate reputations, consumer networks, all work quite nicely without facism. > or if the healthcare providers (e.g. doctors, hospitals) are > getting paid by the pharmaceutical companies to push their products. This already happens. The solution is that physicians hold certain liabilities, which means you can issue a claim against them if they intentionally harm you; that's how it works today, in fact. -- Justin Keyes From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Mon Oct 17 11:42:39 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Seagate introduces new product range, 7200.9 Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F131F@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148105 7200.9 drive, 160gb, $90 plus $3.49 shipping. Other places have it cheaper but it ends up more expensive after shipping. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 17 12:20:04 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Seagate introduces new product range, 7200.9 In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F131F@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051017162004.83820.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148105 > 7200.9 drive, 160gb, $90 plus $3.49 shipping. Other places > have it cheaper but it ends up more expensive after > shipping. If I read the Anandtech review correctly, the 160GB product is a single platter, and probably a good performer. I sure wish they had a 2-platter 320GB and 3-platter 480GB version though. They are still using 125GB and 133GB platters for the 500GB and 400GB versions, respectively. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Mon Oct 17 12:23:38 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Seagate introduces new product range, 7200.9 Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1323@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > > 7200.9 drive, 160gb, $90 plus $3.49 shipping. > > If I read the Anandtech review correctly, the 160GB product > is a single platter, and probably a good performer. Yeah, seems so. I'm looking to move our home PC to SATA and am keeping an eye on this one. > I sure wish they had a 2-platter 320GB and 3-platter 480GB > version though. They are still using 125GB and 133GB > platters for the 500GB and 400GB versions, respectively. I was honestly *very* surprised they weren't doing a 320gb drive, seemed a logical step to me. Maybe they just have loads of older platters they want to use? -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 17 12:33:59 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:21 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Conspiracy... What conspiracy? -- Yikes! In-Reply-To: <46f680d0510170755w77ad23c3y644b1569df9ebd38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051017163359.4143.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > "Jason Boxman" wrote ... > "Justin M. Keyes" wrote ... > "Damien McKenna" wrote ... Yikes! I didn't mean to launch a larger debate on regulation. My comment about my Libertarian viewpoints where more about self-awareness and self-admitting bias. Again, I didn't mean to launch a general discussion on regulation outside the scope of the RAM manufacturer/supplier v. Tier-1 OEM debate. I just merely wanted to point out that lawyers and corp v. corp litigation have more to do with this than protecting consumers. The lawsuits and judgements I've seen as of late are constantly reminding me why our technology lead in this country is being reduced to virtually nothing. Which is why I'm not a big fan of these types of judgements, especially when the primary complainers and beneficiaries (Tier-1 OEMs) are off up-charging consumers just as much (if not more). Consumers are left out to dry in all cases. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 17 12:37:22 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] RE: Seagate introduces new product range, 7200.9 In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1323@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051017163722.26949.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > Yeah, seems so. I'm looking to move our home PC to SATA > and am keeping an eye on this one. I refuse to buy almost anything else but SATA at this point when it comes to commodity (or especailly for 24x7 near-line) fixed disks. Now when it comes to ATAPI (e.g., optical), I steer clear of SATA because of the lack of standards. > I was honestly *very* surprised they weren't doing a 320gb > drive, seemed a logical step to me. What I was surprised by was the rather pathetic AnandTech statements on why. That seemed like an _un_educated guess if I've ever seen one. I think it has to do more with integration issues of the larger platter and related head/mechanics technology. I guess multiple 160GB platters is something they will tackle in the 7200.10 line. > Maybe they just have loads of older platters they want to > use? Maybe, but something tells me its more of an integration issue. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Mon Oct 17 13:03:36 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] AMD gains components for Big Iron market Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F132A@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> >From /. http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/17/115221&threshold=3&tid=14 2&tid=218 "Traditionally the key chips that have allowed companies to scale multiprocessors to large numbers have been proprietary. Some examples are the Cray SeaStar , SGI NUMAlink , HP sx1000 , and the IBM X3/Hurricane . This proprietary paradigm is about to change to a more open one. Two companies have developed key chips for building large Opteron multiprocessors, and they will be commercial off-the-shelf parts. PathScale has released InfiniPath which can be used with an Infiniband switch to make a high-bandwidth low-latency interconnect for a supercomputer cluster. The other company is Newisys , which will soon release the Horus chip . This chip will make it possible to build 32 socket (64-core) shared memory Opteron systems." -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 17 19:53:51 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bryan=20J=2E=20Smith?=) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Sceptre x9g Naga III (19", 8ms, 1280, DVI/VGS) $289 at local Sams Message-ID: At Sams Club near Seminole Town Center. They have a "one time buy" on the Sceptre x9g Naga III for $289. Exact same design, frame, etc... as my older x9g Komodo II, only 8ms response time. It's basically the business version of the x9g gamer product. They have 4 left here (maybe 3 after I leave ;-). Other stores might have similar stock. -- Sent from my Treo From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 17 22:48:50 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Sceptre x9g Naga III (19", 8ms, 1280, DVI/VGS) $289 at local Sams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1129603730.5538.58.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 19:53 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > At Sams Club near Seminole Town Center. > They have a "one time buy" on the Sceptre x9g Naga III for $289. > Exact same design, frame, etc... as my older x9g Komodo II, only 8ms response time. > It's basically the business version of the x9g gamer product. > They have 4 left here (maybe 3 after I leave ;-). > Other stores might have similar stock. I've gotten lucky in my last 3 LCD purchases, 0-2 dead pixels, the few being totally unnoticeable. And on this Naga III, I got only 1 dead pixel. But damn if it ain't the brightest green one that is always noticeable unless there is a bright background or color. Not even a good light blue phases it out -- only a light, bright green or white background. Oh well, 8ms rocks (as well as the portability). ;-> -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From bigjohn at midwest.net Tue Oct 18 00:18:46 2005 From: bigjohn at midwest.net (JohnH) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] MS-DOS - Win3.11 References: <1129603730.5538.58.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> Stupid Question Time!!!! Can MS-DOS & Win3.11 work on any of the machines built within the last 2 or three years? I have not used either of these dinosaurs for years but I have 4 CD's with loads of programs that I would like to use again. OK, fine thses programs are severly outdated and maybe even usless, however I am having a nastalgic moment and and would like to go back to the good old days for a while. Would DOS/Win see large HD's? I remember a limit of 2MB for dos which made it hard to copy a lot of ZIP files to be unziped. Any sugestions (other then "don't do it") would be greatly appreceated!!!!! Thanks John H. pctech@htc.net From philb at philb.us Tue Oct 18 00:43:37 2005 From: philb at philb.us (Phil Barnett) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Conspiracy... What conspiracy? -- adouble-standard? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F12F1@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F12F1@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <200510180043.37905.philb@philb.us> On Monday 17 October 2005 09:40 am, Damien McKenna wrote: > Last year I was given one drug for asthma by a doctor. ?Shortly there > after I developed a nasty ailment, had several visits to the same doctor > and specialists to work out what the ailment was. ?I finally realized > the ailment was a reaction to the drug I was given so I stopped taking > it. ?A month or so later returned to the doctor with more asthma > problems and was given *exactly* *the* *same* *drug*. ?Needless to say I > didn't take it and I've not been back to that doctor since. It's your duty to inform the doctor that you are allergic to a medicine. If you had new information and didn't update the records, then you are part of the problem. If you had all those problems with a prescription that your doctor gave you and you didn't inform him, that's whose fault??? Doctors are not a panacea. Generally, they work from much larger knowledge base than we have in our heads, but with the internet at our hands, we are not only capable, but are clearly part of the process. Stop fearing the doctor and treat him like a partner. Communication is the key. With that in mind, I'll once again relay what an old friend of my father advised me when I was very young. "Always hire an old lawyer and a young doctor." -- Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. it's the only thing that ever has. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 18 01:24:37 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] MS-DOS - Win3.11 In-Reply-To: <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> References: <1129603730.5538.58.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> Message-ID: <1129613077.5538.76.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 23:18 -0500, JohnH wrote: > Stupid Question Time!!!! > Can MS-DOS & Win3.11 work on any of the machines built within the last 2 or > three years? Yes and no. > I have not used either of these dinosaurs for years but I have 4 CD's with > loads of programs that I would like to use again. > OK, fine thses programs are severly outdated and maybe even usless, however > I am having a nastalgic moment and and would like to go back to the good old > days for a while. > > Would DOS/Win see large HD's? No. Even MS-DOS 7.1 (Win95B+) has issues with drives larger than 133GB (128GiB). It is recommended that you put any MS-DOS 6 partitions in the first 8.4GB (8GiB) of the disk -- pre-partition _and_ pre-format them as FAT16. Using the MS-DOS 6 utilities could screw up the disk geometry. > I remember a limit of 2MB for dos MS-DOS versions have a 2GiB FAT16 filesystem limitation using 32KiB clusters. [ SIDE NOTE: NT actually supports creating 4GiB FAT16 filesystems using 64KiB clusters. ] > which made it hard to copy a lot of ZIP files to be unziped. > Any sugestions (other then "don't do it") would be greatly appreceated!!!!! You will want a video card with VESA BIOS Extensions (VBE) 2.0+ support for maximum compatibility with some applications that support VBE, including Windows 3.11. There should be a generic driver for VBE 1.3+ or 2.0+. Audio support will be virtually impossible. The last cards and one of the few PCI-based to support DOS sound with a Real86 driver were the Ensoniq AudioPCI (ES1370) which is also known as the SoundBlaster AudioPCI, PCI64, PCI128 and PCI16 (ES1371/ES1373). ATAPI (e.g., optical drive) support may vary, although most MMC-2+ devices work with most OEM drivers, and the MSCDEX tie into the network redirector and can provide a drive letter. I think your best bet might be to buy DR-DOS 8.1 from DeviceLogics (who purchased the line from Lineo, formerly part of Caldera). http://www.drdos.com/products/drdos81.htm It has the same lineage as the incredibly compatible DR-DOS 7.0x line, which could even replace MS-DOS 7.0 in Windows 95/A. So it should be quite compatible and capable with Windows 3.11 -- possibly much better than even Microsoft's own MS-DOS 6.22 (or even MS-DOS 7.x in Windows 4.x aka "Windows 9x") given Caldera developed DOS Protected Mode Interface (DPMI) services much father (which "386Enhanced Mode" requires, which is _still_ the mode used in even Windows 95/98/Me -- long story). 8.x claims to support large disks (although I'm not sure about >133GB). I had issues supporting disk partitions above 8GiB with DR-DOS 7.03, but they claim to have broken that in 8.x. Note, FreeDOS is another option, but it has many, many limitations and is not nearly as compatible. I remember there was no redirector support awhile back, and I think many things are still buggy even today (although it has become a popular OS for "OEM firmware upgrade disks" to avoid paying MS-DOS or DR-DOS royalties). In other words, it isn't known for its run-time/compatibility features, but makes a fine "bare minimum" solution. http://www.freedos.org/ BTW, you can still get the DR-DOS 7.03 floppy images from here: http://www.drdos.net/download.htm [ NOTE: The 3-disc "Lite" ("l" prefix) versions don't have Personal Netware. The 5-disc versions do include the Personal Netware stack. ] DR-DOS.ORG and .NET are always good sites for independent info: http://www.drdos.com/ http://www.drdos.net/ -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From damien at mc-kenna.com Tue Oct 18 07:18:02 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] MS-DOS - Win3.11 In-Reply-To: <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> References: <1129603730.5538.58.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> Message-ID: <4354D9EA.5090302@mc-kenna.com> JohnH wrote: > Can MS-DOS & Win3.11 work on any of the machines built within the last > 2 or three years? http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/ -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 18 07:35:11 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] MS-DOS - Win3.11 In-Reply-To: <4354D9EA.5090302@mc-kenna.com> References: <1129603730.5538.58.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> <4354D9EA.5090302@mc-kenna.com> Message-ID: <1129635311.5538.97.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 07:18 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/ Of course, emulation is always an option. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 18 08:04:51 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (Wise Ubuntu User Patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] MS-DOS - Win3.11 In-Reply-To: <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> References: <1129603730.5538.58.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> Message-ID: <1129637091.16579.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 23:18 -0500, JohnH wrote: > Stupid Question Time!!!! > > Can MS-DOS & Win3.11 work on any of the machines built within the last 2 or > three years? > > I have not used either of these dinosaurs for years but I have 4 CD's with > loads of programs that I would like to use again. > > OK, fine thses programs are severly outdated and maybe even usless, however > I am having a nastalgic moment and and would like to go back to the good old > days for a while. > > Would DOS/Win see large HD's? I remember a limit of 2MB for dos which made > it hard to copy a lot of ZIP files to be unziped. > > Any sugestions (other then "don't do it") would be greatly appreceated!!!!! > > Thanks > John H. > pctech@htc.net > > _______________________________________________ > Pc_support mailing list > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support Try your question over on the BeOS, BSD, or Linux boards, Whooee! the DOS emulators in those OSes run most DOS programs, games, etc. Also, some of those older programs have migrated up to run on the latest OSes. http://sourceforge.net Hard drive size limitations are a function of the capability for the system to address based upon the width of the address buss (number of address lines), plus the BIOS that is on the mainboard. Any X86 system should run DOS. Also, those games and programs written in DOS should run on the free Digital Research Dos 'DRDOS 7.0.2' that is available for free download. You can google it. ONE IMPORTANT CAVEAT, is that those old DOS games and utilities sometimes ran against the system clock, so unless you re-write them, they will execute at the speed of the system, and you will only see a 'blip' and not be able to play them, unless you run them in an emulator, which has some mechanism in it's program to provide software clocking... There are a whole lot of retro game web sites. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 18 09:12:13 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] MS-DOS - Win3.11 In-Reply-To: <1129637091.16579.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1129603730.5538.58.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> <1129637091.16579.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1129641133.5538.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 08:04 -0400, Wise Ubuntu User Patrick wrote: > ONE IMPORTANT CAVEAT, is that those old DOS games and utilities > sometimes ran against the system clock, so unless you re-write them, > they will execute at the speed of the system, and you will only see a > 'blip' and not be able to play them, unless you run them in an emulator, > which has some mechanism in it's program to provide software > clocking... Excellent point. MS-DOS 6.x/7.x's DPMI timing has issues with >350MHz systems. There were patches for Windows 95+, but not sure about Windows 3.11. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 18 09:11:10 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] MS-DOS - Win3.11 In-Reply-To: <1129637091.16579.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1129603730.5538.58.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <00f801c5d39b$090cc2b0$6401a8c0@3a5ah6vqcd> <1129637091.16579.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1129641070.5538.103.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 08:04 -0400, Wise Ubuntu User Patrick wrote: > Also, some of those older programs have migrated up to run on the latest > OSes. http://sourceforge.net If you're just looking for a program (or clone), try FreshMeat.NET: http://www.freshmeat.net -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 18 11:34:30 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Tom's Entry-Level Enterprise Patch Management Articles ... Message-ID: <20051018153430.78459.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Tom's Hardware barely scratches the surface, but it's still nice to see a largely "hardware enthusiast market" attempt to address more enterprise aspects like patch management. The depth is rather shallow, and I would have liked to see a further discussion of capabilities of enterprise management systems, but at least Tom's listened to others and included Altiris. Altiris is a Microsoft Gold Partner and rumored to be the preferred solution inside of Microsoft itself (especially after SQL Slammer of January 2003). Part I: http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20051010/ Part II: http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20051018/ -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 18 21:57:30 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Six (6) Things to Know About Linux ... Message-ID: <1129687050.5052.1.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> I've been meaning to write something like this for years. I guess this is still a 'work-in-progress' (WIP) but hits on many points I've been saying for years. http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2005/10/6-things-to-know-about-linux.html -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From m9u35g at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 01:32:13 2005 From: m9u35g at gmail.com (Justin M. Keyes) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: [LeapList] Six (6) Things to Know About Linux ... In-Reply-To: <1129687050.5052.1.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1129687050.5052.1.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46f680d0510182232i4d83426en3c8885c9ec5f267f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/18/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I've been meaning to write something like this for years. I guess this > is still a 'work-in-progress' (WIP) but hits on many points I've been > saying for years. > > http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2005/10/6-things-to-know-about-linux.html great insights as usual Bryan. The GUI was invented on unix(-like) platform? was xerox using unix? -- Justin Keyes From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 19 07:25:08 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (Wise Ubuntu User Patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: [LeapList] Six (6) Things to Know About Linux ... In-Reply-To: <46f680d0510182232i4d83426en3c8885c9ec5f267f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1129687050.5052.1.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <46f680d0510182232i4d83426en3c8885c9ec5f267f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1129721108.5178.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-10-19 at 01:32 -0400, Justin M. Keyes wrote: > On 10/18/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > I've been meaning to write something like this for years. I guess this > > is still a 'work-in-progress' (WIP) but hits on many points I've been > > saying for years. > > > > http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2005/10/6-things-to-know-about-linux.html > > great insights as usual Bryan. > > The GUI was invented on unix(-like) platform? was xerox using unix? > > -- > Justin Keyes > _______________________________________________ > Pc_support mailing list > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support My thanks, it is a good commentary. But, if you want the general public to read it, could a small bit of work be done, to make the sentences less convoluted? I concentrated, but, had a small bit of trouble sometimes, following the threads. Imagine reading it, half asleep, at 11:20 PM, after having been on-screen since 7:00 AM! I bet it would be very popular on Slashdot, or newsforge. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 19 08:54:45 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: [LeapList] Six (6) Things to Know About Linux ... In-Reply-To: <1129721108.5178.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1129687050.5052.1.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <46f680d0510182232i4d83426en3c8885c9ec5f267f@mail.gmail.com> <1129721108.5178.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1129726486.5052.19.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Justin M. Keyes wrote: > great insights as usual Bryan. > The GUI was invented on unix(-like) platform? was xerox using unix? Yes, that was an oversimplification. But it's written for the Windows audience. I could probably use another phrase ("a predecessor to modern UNIX"). Patrick wrote: > My thanks, it is a good commentary. > But, if you want the general public to read it, could a small bit of > work be done, to make the sentences less convoluted? I concentrated, > but, had a small bit of trouble sometimes, following the threads. I use my Blog as a launching pad for formal articles. They are purposely _not_ "publication quality" (as I would sign over any rights to a re-written, "publication quality" version). "These are my general ramblings that are NOT publication quality (much less even spelling/grammar checked). You can consider these not even "alpha quality," but a means to dump my ideas which may be used in future publications -- especially if many comments are received." > Imagine reading it, half asleep, at 11:20 PM, after having been > on-screen since 7:00 AM! > I bet it would be very popular on Slashdot, or newsforge. I know several editors with several publications. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 19 13:15:30 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BOT=5D_=BFEspa=F1ol_para_los_tecn?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=F3logos=3F?= Message-ID: <20051019171530.45718.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was going to bring this up in person at the LEAP meeting tomorrow night, but since it is likely I will not make it or be late due to work, I will bring it up on the list. - Gaining Opportunity As a central Florida resident, I've always felt the closet reality that I am hindered by lack of speaking/writing Espa?ol. 3 years of formal Espa?ol grammar has netting me nothing, because I do not expose myself to it enough only to wish I could find some way in my profession. Especially now since there are a lot of opportunities, for both myself locally, as well as for my current employer in Latin and South America. Which is why I'm writing this e-mail. The most direct use of Espa?ol by myself will be in two forms: Technical conversation and, given time, technical writing. First and foremost, I need to have a means to convey technical information and engage in technical exchange, even if at a rudimentary, broken and almost "hack" way to start. Eventually I believe I can take that level and extend it to proper grammar and prose, both in speech and writing over time, since I do remember much of my formal (albeit almost useless from a practical standpoint) education. - Getting Geeky With It Which brings me to this e-mail. Depending on how many technologists (not necessarily Linux or a specific product) we have at LEAP who speak Espa?ol fluently, I would like to start an informal clique. This clique would be people who would want to exchange e-mail off-list (no mailing lists necessary, we're talking only a few people), and possibly meet informally on occassion (maybe once a month). Key to this clique would be a number of willing, Espa?ol speaking technologists who would share a few hours a month with us in e-mail, possibly in person. By e-mail, I mean taking the time to discuss current technology in Espa?ol almost at an annoying pace for them, to those of us who have had only formal, non-practical exposure to the language in the past. In person, and probably more of an incentive to overcome that annoyance, I would like those of us "peer, English-only speaking technologists" to take our "peer, Espa?ol speaking technologists" to dinner or other social events were the "learners" would fund the event. - Is this a stupid idea and/or not feasible? These are just some ideas on how we could get this rolling, even if it's just a few "peer technologists" and "peer learners" who only meet occassionally. I don't know if this would work, let alone if we have enough Espa?ol speaking peers in our group who would be interested, but I figured I have to ask. Because from my point, it's probably the only way I'm going to get some practical Espa?ol under my belt. And I believe this way will have the best, most direct impact, professionally for myself, my employer, my clients (or prospective clients), etc... I apologize for the off-topic post in this matter, but I don't want to continue as an English speaking-only technologist in a country that is clearly one of two languages now. To do so is to only limit my opportunties (regardless of any ideological aspects), and that's all that matters to me. It is my sincerest hope that through trial'n error of such approaches, I can find both a fun and directly professionally applicable way to learning Espa?ol. Besides, in the worst case, I'm only out a few bucks bribing people to dinner to geek speak for a few hours. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 19 14:13:10 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (Wise Ubuntu User Patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] [OT] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BFEspa=F1ol?= para los =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tecn=F3logos=3F?= In-Reply-To: <20051019171530.45718.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051019171530.45718.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1129745590.10563.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-10-19 at 10:15 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I was going to bring this up in person at the LEAP meeting > tomorrow night, but since it is likely I will not make it or > be late due to work, I will bring it up on the list. > > - Gaining Opportunity > > As a central Florida resident, I've always felt the closet > reality that I am hindered by lack of speaking/writing > Espa?ol. 3 years of formal Espa?ol grammar has netting me > nothing, because I do not expose myself to it enough only to > wish I could find some way in my profession. Especially now > since there are a lot of opportunities, for both myself > locally, as well as for my current employer in Latin and > South America. Which is why I'm writing this e-mail. > > The most direct use of Espa?ol by myself will be in two > forms: Technical conversation and, given time, technical > writing. First and foremost, I need to have a means to > convey technical information and engage in technical > exchange, even if at a rudimentary, broken and almost "hack" > way to start. Eventually I believe I can take that level and > extend it to proper grammar and prose, both in speech and > writing over time, since I do remember much of my formal > (albeit almost useless from a practical standpoint) > education. > > - Getting Geeky With It > > Which brings me to this e-mail. Depending on how many > technologists (not necessarily Linux or a specific product) > we have at LEAP who speak Espa?ol fluently, I would like to > start an informal clique. This clique would be people who > would want to exchange e-mail off-list (no mailing lists > necessary, we're talking only a few people), and possibly > meet informally on occassion (maybe once a month). Key to > this clique would be a number of willing, Espa?ol speaking > technologists who would share a few hours a month with us in > e-mail, possibly in person. > > By e-mail, I mean taking the time to discuss current > technology in Espa?ol almost at an annoying pace for them, to > those of us who have had only formal, non-practical exposure > to the language in the past. In person, and probably more of > an incentive to overcome that annoyance, I would like those > of us "peer, English-only speaking technologists" to take our > "peer, Espa?ol speaking technologists" to dinner or other > social events were the "learners" would fund the event. > > - Is this a stupid idea and/or not feasible? > > These are just some ideas on how we could get this rolling, > even if it's just a few "peer technologists" and "peer > learners" who only meet occassionally. I don't know if this > would work, let alone if we have enough Espa?ol speaking > peers in our group who would be interested, but I figured I > have to ask. Because from my point, it's probably the only > way I'm going to get some practical Espa?ol under my belt. > And I believe this way will have the best, most direct > impact, professionally for myself, my employer, my clients > (or prospective clients), etc... > > I apologize for the off-topic post in this matter, but I > don't want to continue as an English speaking-only > technologist in a country that is clearly one of two > languages now. To do so is to only limit my opportunties > (regardless of any ideological aspects), and that's all that > matters to me. It is my sincerest hope that through trial'n > error of such approaches, I can find both a fun and directly > professionally applicable way to learning Espa?ol. > > Besides, in the worst case, I'm only out a few bucks bribing > people to dinner to geek speak for a few hours. > > Join some usenet lists, and on-line lists that are in Espa?ol? Lurk for a while, but, try to read many topics, and jump in when you see the best chance! From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Oct 19 14:21:15 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_=5BPc=5FSupport=5D_=5BOT=5D_=BFEspa=F1ol_para_lostec?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?n=F3logos=3F?= Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1418@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > Join some usenet lists, and on-line lists that are in Espa?ol? > Lurk for a while, but, try to read many topics, and jump in > when you see the best chance! Something like that could help when done along side a smaller group's attempts to learn the language so you could e.g. ask the smaller group "what's a 'lefthandedwidgetspelledinspanish' and why is it funny when its yellow?" but on its own I'd imagine the sense of confusion could be too great. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 19 16:16:00 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] [OT] ¿Español para lostecnólogos? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1418@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051019201601.21623.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Patrick wrote: > Join some usenet lists, and on-line lists that are in > Espa?ol? Lurk for a while, but, try to read many topics, > and jump in when you see the best chance! I've been lurking on a few Newsgroups for some while now. But what I want is someone I can meet in-person. Damien McKenna wrote: > Something like that could help when done along side a > smaller group's attempts to learn the language so you could > e.g. ask the smaller group "what's a > 'lefthandedwidgetspelledinspanish' and why is it funny when > its yellow?" but on its own I'd imagine the sense of > confusion could be too great. The in-person dialog is a major benefit to learning. I don't see why a few people couldn't make this into a local, informal clique. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From jasonb at edseek.com Thu Oct 20 01:38:50 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Windows 2000 and FAT32 -> ext3; Windows goes nuts Message-ID: <200510200138.50522.jasonb@edseek.com> Fun. I had an FAT32 partition on /dev/hdc2 (This Dell has the CD and HD reversed) and recently converted it to an extended partition and installed ext3 on /dev/hdc5 and installed Debian. Well, of course, Windows flips out. I managed to remove a drive letter assignment from it, but Windows 2000 still wants to fsck what it still believes is a FAT32 filesystem at boot time. I've managed to abort it, but I can't imagine it would be good were I to miss that abortion prompt. Can I just make the partition go away so Windows forgets it exists? I've not had problems in the past when I leave the partition unformatted forever and later install Linux. Windows just claims it's unformatted. That's fine. But in this instance it was formatted prior and I didn't nuke it in Windows before changing the partition table out from under Windows. Perhaps I can just delete the logical 'drive' under Windows' Disk Management and then add it back manually via `fdisk` or whatever? The actual on disk layout shouldn't change, I'd think, so it ought to be completely safe? Thoughts? Thanks. -- Jason Boxman http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff From ae4ko at amsat.org Thu Oct 20 11:56:45 2005 From: ae4ko at amsat.org (Aaron Morrison) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Windows 2000 and FAT32 -> ext3; Windows goes nuts In-Reply-To: <200510200138.50522.jasonb@edseek.com> Message-ID: <435785FD.4815.FE10AA2@ae4ko.amsat.org> Try installing the EXT2 driver from fs-driver.org -- It's a windows IFS driver that talks ext2. works well from what I've used of it, and it might make windows happy looking at that partition. --am On 20 Oct 2005 at 1:38, Jason Boxman wrote: > Fun. > > I had an FAT32 partition on /dev/hdc2 (This Dell has the CD and HD reversed) > and recently converted it to an extended partition and installed ext3 > on /dev/hdc5 and installed Debian. > > Well, of course, Windows flips out. > > I managed to remove a drive letter assignment from it, but Windows 2000 still > wants to fsck what it still believes is a FAT32 filesystem at boot time. > I've managed to abort it, but I can't imagine it would be good were I to miss > that abortion prompt. > > Can I just make the partition go away so Windows forgets it exists? I've not > had problems in the past when I leave the partition unformatted forever and > later install Linux. Windows just claims it's unformatted. That's fine. > But in this instance it was formatted prior and I didn't nuke it in Windows > before changing the partition table out from under Windows. > > Perhaps I can just delete the logical 'drive' under Windows' Disk Management > and then add it back manually via `fdisk` or whatever? The actual on disk > layout shouldn't change, I'd think, so it ought to be completely safe? > > Thoughts? > > Thanks. > > -- > > Jason Boxman > http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff > > _______________________________________________ > Pc_support mailing list > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 20 12:21:53 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Hurricane Tracking Google Maps Mashups ... Message-ID: <20051020162153.30513.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Much better than hitting NOAA's NHC: http://compooter.org/sandbox/code/google/hurricane/atlantic/ The New York Times pointed out this guy is doing a good job of keeping track of various Google Maps Mashups ... http://googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/ -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Thu Oct 20 17:28:00 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay ... Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1494@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> http://www.betanews.com/article/HP_Backs_Off_Bluray_Support_Over_DRM/112 9822128 HP, one of the Blu-ray backers, have requested that the Blu-Ray committee to use the same copyright mechanisms and menuing systems that HD-DVD supports. An interesting turn of events. Makes me wonder what the iHD menuing system is if Vista supports it? -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 20 19:20:18 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay ... In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1494@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051020232018.4783.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > HP, one of the Blu-ray backers, have requested that the > Blu-Ray committee to use the same copyright mechanisms and > menuing systems that HD-DVD supports. An interesting turn > of events. Makes me wonder what the iHD menuing system is > if Vista supports it? You have to remember who Sony (Blu-Ray) is, who Toshiba (HD-DVD) is and who HP is. Sony is RIAA/MPAA interested in tight DRM. Toshiba is a technology company. HP is a technology company. BTW, did anyone else catch the news about Toshiba partnering with Chinese firms on HD-DVD drives? They are going for price to beat Sony & Blu-Ray. Betamax all over again for Sony? -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From damien at mc-kenna.com Thu Oct 20 20:55:58 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay ... In-Reply-To: <20051020232018.4783.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051020232018.4783.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43583C9E.9080400@mc-kenna.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > You have to remember who Sony (Blu-Ray) is, who Toshiba > (HD-DVD) is and who HP is. Sony is RIAA/MPAA interested in > tight DRM. Toshiba is a technology company. HP is a > technology company. > Makes sense then. HP don't seem to be too fussed over the content folks, they're after the customers. > BTW, did anyone else catch the news about Toshiba partnering > with Chinese firms on HD-DVD drives? They are going for > price to beat Sony & Blu-Ray. Betamax all over again for > Sony? > Looking like it, too bad their console will at least partly be affected by it giving it less of a chance to stand on its own merits. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Fri Oct 21 11:59:46 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay ... Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F14B9@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> The Forrester Group, whoever they are, have pronounced that Blue-ray will be the victor in a race that hasn't even started - one horse (hd-dvd) went back to the vet for a checkup while the other (blu-ray) is in the box waiting for the whistle. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051019/tv_nm/blu_ray_dvd_dc Also, Warner has changed from HD-DVD to Blu-ray: http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=industryNews&storyID =2005-10-20T225631Z_01_SCH082504_RTRIDST_0_INDUSTRY-MEDIA-WARNER-DC.XML -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Oct 21 12:31:58 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: [DISCUSS] LVM -- disk labels, slicing and encapsulating more disk labels ... In-Reply-To: <20051021154537.34751.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051021163158.92540.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > LVM, like LDM, an "Extended Partition" or countless BSD and > other OS approaches. It's just a disk slice (partition) > that puts another disk label (partition table) in the legacy > BIOS' disk label (partition table of "primary" partitions). > ... > There is no getting "past the lvm". LVM is a disk label > that appears as a single primary partition. You have to > have LVM disk label support in your kernel to read it. > If you're running kernel 2.6, this is LVM2, and not LVM. I guess to put this in ASCII art ... The Legacy BIOS Disk Label (aka PC "Partition Table") has up to 4 [Disk] Slices ... 1. 2. 3. 4. The Legacy DOS Disk Label Nomenclature is that the 4 possible Slices are called Primary Partitions ... 1. Primary (type 1/FAT12 or 6/FAT16) ... 4. Primary (type 1/FAT12 or 6/FAT16) DOS 3.x added its first encapsulated Disk Label that allows additional slices beyond the four. The legacy BIOS slice (primary partition) is set to type 5 (extended partition), and then this disk label (the first sector of the slice / extended partition) allows one or more new slices (logical partitions). x. Primary (type 5/"Extended") -> E1. "Logical" (type 1/FAT12, 4/FAT16-32M or 6/FAT16) ... Ex. "Logical" (type 1/FAT12, 4/FAT16-32M or 6/FAT16) DOS 7.1 added a few more types -- B/FAT32, C/FAT32-LBA, E/FAT16-LBA and F/Extended-LBA. Microsoft now refers to the Legacy BIOS/DOS Disk Label as a "Basic Disk." OS/2-NT3.1+ had only one additional type, 7/HPFS-NTFS. As of NT5.0 (2000), Microsoft added a new encapsulated Disk Label that does more than allow more slices. It adds areas for meta-data including a bootstrap, exact geometry (possibly different than the BIOS), areas where SAM/SIDs for NTFS filesystem can be stored outside of the registry (so other NT installations can more safely read/write to other NT installations' NTFS filesystems without their registry) and a journal of changes, especially for software RAID volumes. x. Primary (type 42/Logical Disk Manager, LDM) -> Meta-data (Boot, Geometry, SAM/SID, journal, etc...) V1. "Volume" (type 7 or DOS 1, 4, 6, B, C or E) ... Vx. "Volume" (type 7 or DOS 1, 4, 6, B, C or E) Microsoft calls this a "Dynamic Disk." But it is actually just a legacy BIOS Disk Label that has a Primary Partition of type 42. Anyone who has run NT 3.1-4.0 and tried to use software RAID knows that the lack of being able to store meta-data and other slice-dependency information outside of the filesystems is a PITA. I lost a lot of software RAID volumes in NT 3.1-4.0 because of this. Same deal with geometry differences between different NT installs. The LDM Disk Label allows these meta-data to be stored. This is nothing new. Most UNIX flavors -- BSD, Irix, SunOS, etc... -- have all had their own disk labels with self-contained boot-strap areas, volume meta-data info, etc... The type 8E/Logical Volume Management (LVM) now adds this for Linux as well. x. Primary (type 8E/Logical Volume Management, LVM) -> Meta-data (Boot, Geometry, Volume org, etc...) PV1. (Physical Volume) ... PVx. (Physical Volume) Volume Groups (VGs) contain PVs from any number of disks which are then organized into usable Logical Volumes (LVs) which are more like usable disk slices (partitions) that can contain filesystems. Because like NT 3.1-4.0, I do have lost MD software RAID volumes because they was nothing outside of the filesystems themselves to indicate their organization. Sure, there was the type FD/Linux-RAID-Auto, and changes to LILO/GRUB to help this. But for maximum compatibility, using LVM (LVM2 in kernel 2.6), the bootstrap, RAID organization and other meta-data can be stored at the start of a disk. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Fri Oct 21 13:00:17 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Exchange Server login names Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F14BE@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> For ages I had problem with the login name with the email system they have at work, Microsoft Exchange Server 2000. While it would work fine via the MAPI or web interfaces, I couldn't get it to work via POP3 or IMAP4. Searching online brought up the notion of using a special sequence as the login name: domain\username\mailbox so it'd be something like: mycompany\Damien McKenna\dmckenna Well, turned out that wasn't correct and today I finally got it, I needed to do: domain\ntloginname\exchangealias which ends up being completely different than the other one. Thought you admin-types might like to know. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 21 13:40:49 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (Wise Ubuntu User Patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] You're spending too much time on the net Message-ID: <1129916449.17569.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> http://thecenter2000.com/last/ From jasonb at edseek.com Sat Oct 22 00:58:39 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Windows 2000 and FAT32 -> ext3; Windows goes nuts In-Reply-To: <200510200138.50522.jasonb@edseek.com> References: <200510200138.50522.jasonb@edseek.com> Message-ID: <200510220058.39279.jasonb@edseek.com> On Thursday 20 October 2005 01:38, Jason Boxman wrote: > Fun. Heh. Owned. After doing some research and creating some small ext3 images on loopback, it became pretty clear that my first two 512-byte sectors had a bunch of Windows junk in them. I suppose Windows 2000 was just keying off that, so I zeroed out the first two sectors and booted back into Windows. Windows is now happy and disavows all knowledge of any FAT32 filesystems. (The last symptoms after I had removed the drive letter from the filesystem under Disk Management were slow boot up and Disk Management MMC hanging for about 2 minutes before showing me the partitions on disk -- Such nonsense has now stopped.) Fun tools during this experiment included `dd`, `hexeditor`, and `gpart`. -- Jason Boxman http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Oct 22 11:19:48 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay ... In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F14B9@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F14B9@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <1129994388.5015.19.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 11:59 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > The Forrester Group, whoever they are, have pronounced that Blue-ray > will be the victor in a race that hasn't even started - one horse > (hd-dvd) went back to the vet for a checkup while the other (blu-ray) is > in the box waiting for the whistle. > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051019/tv_nm/blu_ray_dvd_dc Ummm, that's not a very good analogy. It's more like _both_ are now at the vet for a checkup. HD-DVD was supposed to be out first, but now it looks like HD-DVD will be released at the same time as Blu-Ray. I honestly don't know why there is all this "pro Blu-Ray" media. It's not legacy DVD compatible, it's clearly built by Sony with content control in mind, and it's not PC/data friendly. HD-DVD has content control in mind too (and improved over legacy DVD), but Blu-Ray is far more restrictive. > Also, Warner has changed from HD-DVD to Blu-ray: > http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=industryNews&storyID > =2005-10-20T225631Z_01_SCH082504_RTRIDST_0_INDUSTRY-MEDIA-WARNER-DC.XML I expect every RIAA/MPAA member to support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Oct 22 11:25:01 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Windows 2000 and FAT32 -> ext3; Windows goes nuts In-Reply-To: <200510220058.39279.jasonb@edseek.com> References: <200510200138.50522.jasonb@edseek.com> <200510220058.39279.jasonb@edseek.com> Message-ID: <1129994701.5015.25.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-10-22 at 00:58 -0400, Jason Boxman wrote: > Heh. > Owned. > After doing some research and creating some small ext3 images on loopback, it > became pretty clear that my first two 512-byte sectors had a bunch of Windows > junk in them. I suppose Windows 2000 was just keying off that, so I zeroed > out the first two sectors and booted back into Windows. Windows is now happy > and disavows all knowledge of any FAT32 filesystems. That makes sense because unlike FAT/NTFS, which have all sorts of meta- data at the start of the filesystem (the FAT for FAT, NTFS puts some other data there while the FAT goes in the middle), Ext2/3 does not. With Ext2/3 superblocks are scattered all over the disk, and the first few sectors are reserved for any bootstrap code. With FAT/NTFS, the bootstrap comes after the FAT or meta-data, respectively. NT (200x/XP) is a far more intelligent kernel than DOS (9x/Me), so it will inspect those sectors, even on disk slices (partitions) that are not DOS/NT types. But I guess it's still not intelligent enough. ;-> > (The last symptoms after I had removed the drive letter from the filesystem > under Disk Management were slow boot up and Disk Management MMC hanging for > about 2 minutes before showing me the partitions on disk -- Such nonsense has > now stopped.) > Fun tools during this experiment included `dd`, `hexeditor`, and `gpart`. Yep, dd is your friend. You can just set a count and blocksize to grab a few sectors and then use the hexeditor to inspect it. Gpart is why I keep an INSERT CD on me, so I can recover disk labels (partition tables) -- especially disk labels in disk labels (e.g., type 5/F extended partitions and their logical partitions in them, type 42 NT5+ LDM and volumes, type 8E Linux LVM and volumes, etc...). -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From damien at mc-kenna.com Sat Oct 22 13:29:24 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay ... In-Reply-To: <1129994388.5015.19.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F14B9@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> <1129994388.5015.19.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <435A76F4.5000606@mc-kenna.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I honestly don't know why there is all this "pro Blu-Ray" media. It's > not legacy DVD compatible, it's clearly built by Sony with content > control in mind, and it's not PC/data friendly. > Why is Blu-Ray not data friendly? > I expect every RIAA/MPAA member to support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. > We'll probably see the announcements over the next few months, if not weeks with the way things are hotting up. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Oct 22 17:10:57 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay ... In-Reply-To: <435A76F4.5000606@mc-kenna.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F14B9@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> <1129994388.5015.19.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <435A76F4.5000606@mc-kenna.com> Message-ID: <1130015457.5015.68.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-10-22 at 13:29 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > Why is Blu-Ray not data friendly? HD-DVD uses the established Universal Disc Format (UDF, version 2.6) filesystem that is used by all re-writable media, in addition to being a replacement for ISO9660 for write-once media. UDF 2.6 is designed for DRM and other things, without destroying legacy compatibility. Blu Ray uses it's own filesystem. Although UDF 2.5 support has been made to work with Blu Ray, the Blu Ray consortium refuses to use it as the standard. That's part of what HP is lobbying about, the refusal of the MPAA/RIAA to guarantee compatibility. Outside of Software Architects Inc. (SAI), which is 5-figures to license, there is little support for the Blu Ray filesystem outside of "players". In other words, Intel, Microsoft, HP and just about everyone else hates the concept that either they won't be able to play Blu Ray audio/movies or, and more likely, they're going to have to pay huge royalties for Blu Ray filesystem support. Especially when UDF exists and works just fine for Blu Ray. Again, it's about "control." > We'll probably see the announcements over the next few months, if not > weeks with the way things are hotting up. What I can't understand is where people are coming from Blu Ray. It's always been "behind" on release date and HD-DVD slips are only going to make it not have as much of a lead. This was so "deja vu" of the original Sony/Philips 3GB DVD-R+W that hit Japan 2 years late. _After_ 2nd Gen Matsushita pushed DVD-RAM was 4.7GB as well as Pioneer DVD-R(G) drives came out at a lower price point. Sony promises one thing, then delivers another. HP wants to avoid a repeat of this, because they were caught falsely advertising DVD-R(G) then DVD+R support for their 1st gen DVD100i drives that ended up only doing DVD+RW (no DVD+R) because Sony couldn't come through on its promises. Then I remember how much media Sony controls. ;-> -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Oct 22 17:16:44 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:22 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Intel, Microsoft to support HD DVD, not BlueRay (2) In-Reply-To: <1130015457.5015.68.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F14B9@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> <1129994388.5015.19.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <435A76F4.5000606@mc-kenna.com> <1130015457.5015.68.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1130015804.5015.74.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-10-22 at 16:10 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > What I can't understand is where people are coming from Blu Ray. It's > always been "behind" on release date and HD-DVD slips are only going to > make it not have as much of a lead. > This was so "deja vu" of the original Sony/Philips 3GB DVD-R+W that hit > Japan 2 years late. _After_ 2nd Gen Matsushita pushed DVD-RAM was 4.7GB > as well as Pioneer DVD-R(G) drives came out at a lower price point. Again, even DVD-RAM and DVD-R and then DVD-R/RW "slips" still _beat_ Sony/Philips DVD-R+W (Japan-only), DVD+RW and DVD+R/RW players in release dates and compatibility. Furthermore ... > Sony promises one thing, then delivers another. Sony/Philips didn't even nail down DVD+R player compatibility until 2004. The data and player issues nagged them for 3+ years, whereas DVD- R always worked solidly, and even DVD-RW was just as good as DVD+RW. This will happen again with the PS3. Don't be surprised when the 1st gen Blu Ray drives that go into the PS3 are _not_ compatible with discs generated by and for other "player" and, especially, "data" drives. The so-called "quantity" of Blu Ray drives in PS3s will have the same so-called "quantity" of early DVD+RW drives. They will be early generation drives that are not compatible with various Blu Ray rewritable/WORM media, just the "ROM". > Then I remember how much media Sony controls. ;-> This isn't conspiracy, it's reality. Remember what is involved. Do technology companies define what Joe American hears? Or is it media? Some nuts aren't even crackable by Microsoft, which is why I often point out they are not the "sole monopoly" around. ;-> -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Oct 22 20:56:28 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: [LeapList] Time to move to LEAPBS -- 1 more LEAPLIST post ... In-Reply-To: <1130025937.5015.94.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <200510221200.13617.whittake@sbaflorida.com> <1130024166.8234.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1130025937.5015.94.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1130028988.5208.15.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-10-22 at 19:05 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > My apologies for inciting such a discussion. I wanted to bring it up at > the start of the LEAP meeting this past Thursday, but my current > position keeps me at work late. Maybe we can take 5 minutes to discuss > who might be interested before the next Thursday meeting starts. I've tried re-writing this 5 times now. Let's see how this works ... My #1 reason for posting was to find fellow professionals active in LEAPLIST (or PC_support), located in the local Orlando area, who spoke Espa?ol as their natively learned language (regardless of what they spoke primarily now). Let's look at what transgressed here from I would assume is their viewpoint ... 1. These professionals learned to speak English, possibly more fluently than many Americans 2. These Hispanic-Americans have a distain for immigrants who do not bother to learn the most commonly spoken language in America Now with those 2 things said ... 3. They are yet "throw in the same group" as: illegal aliens, immigrants who don't want to speak English, etc... 4. They are labeled just because they speak another language, even though they learned English (if not fluently) to communicate with everyone else. As such, I really could *CARE*LESS* less what people's opinions are. In fact, I feel stupid for even making the few statements I did to try to "moderate" people back to my original point. I'm sure such Hispanic- Americans are sick of #3 and #4 as much as #2, and feel "left out." It's like we penalize them for "being the best of both worlds" -- they are constantly in between the left and right of arguing. As an American professional in the SE region of the United States, I have a financial interest in changing the fact that I'm an an English- only speaking American who wants to conduct business in the western hemisphere other than just the United States. I _need_ to be bi- lingual, and I'm going to be bi-lingual _before_ I give any opinion again, or even discuss this on the list ever again. So at this point, if any such members do exist, I wouldn't recommend they respond on-list. Beyond just Homer's post, it was clear that only about half the people that responded were actually interested in discussions on what professionals can do to better themselves. Again, several followed-up with "you should speak English if you're in this country" even when you did. That was *NOT* what my post was about, and only encourages the people *I* was trying to reach *NOT* to respond. *CASE-IN-POINT* ... I'm tired of the number of Americans who have a problem with anyone who speaks Espa?ol at all in this country. I mean, who knows, it might be an American like myself who is practicing his Espa?ol with his fellow Americans! You don't have to remind us what language is primarily used in this country. We all know it. It gets old even to me! Let alone probably those I was trying to reach! I shouldn't have brought it up here. Instead I should have sought _any_ technical group in Orlando where Espa?ol is the primary language. Unfortunately, I figured that would be pretty ignorant of me -- going to such a group with virtually *NO* conversational Espa?ol and expecting them to teach me. I wasn't interested in doing anything form -- no SIG, no separate mailing list, etc... I just wanted to find local, live people to start engaging in communication with, in the hope that I -- and anyone else interested -- could form a clique as I have so detailed before. Damn it, the type of discussion I saw here got just as messy as I thought it would. I knew better than to pose it. I had already been lurking on UseNet groups that were in Espa?ol. The reality is that I know way to little to participate, and that still didn't solve the problem of in-person communication. I figured the best avenue would be to do it in the context of my profession. I figured I wouldn't be the only one out there that would think it was a good idea. And I had hoped there would be a favorable response, possibly one or two LEAP members who not only knew Espa?ol, but it was their primary language. There is a difference between being PC and encouraging counter-PC arguments and the reality that we live in a nation that is increasingly becoming bi-lingual, at least locally. If you have a problem with it that causes you to "knee jerk" a stand anytime someone like *I* bring it up -- even if you're agreeing with me on the professional points -- get over it! I don't want to hear about what language we should use in this country anymore. If you want to reach people, learn the language they use -- and just have pity for those who do not. Whit probably had the best suggestion of anyone. Instead of trying to use a "great" group like LEAP (nothing against the founders or current leadership, these guys _do_ represent the best of LEAP, and always have with extremely rare exception), I'm going to do it on my own with audio CDs. After that, I will approach _another_ group and leave LEAP out of it. Sometimes I don't know what is worse, the PC media or the anti-PC that results -- sometimes I think the media eats it up, so that's why they do it. I'm the type of guy that does what needs to be done to satisfy my profession. At the same time, I don't hold anything over anyone. I get penalized for having a BSE, for having a couple dozen certs -- things that I _know_ prove _nothing_. I'm just a guy trying to survive and better myself as best as I can. Heck, I see the same with my wife, a teacher who has several post-graduate degrees and is working on her PhD while teaching college at night (kids during the day), belittled because she has something. So I really feel for Hispanic Americans who get evil eyes for merely knowing Espa?ol. Because anything they bring up something, they are crushed between the PC and counter-PC discussions between two camps hell-bent on non-sense. Dammit, why does every discussion of Espa?ol have to turn into this? Take Homer out of it, I saw the line on several responses. We've heard it enough. Sorry, end of rant. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 24 12:04:02 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] VCs avoiding .NET, actual adoption is hard to gage, even inside of MS itself ... Message-ID: <20051024160403.64885.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Found this article enligtening about .NET adoption. According to Microsoft, it is the #1 (on Windows) and #3 (non-Windows) development platform for corporations internally. But VC and other 3rd party funding is clearly avoiding .NET -- both for lack of adoption by independent software vendors (ISVs), as well as fear of offering something the 800lbs. gorrilla might assimilate. But probably the most interesting story is the one hit on near the end. It is the _total_lack_ of _any_ adoption of .NET in Microsoft's software itself. Microsoft continues to treat .NET like a vertical application tool for corporations, and Vista Server will only offer Indigo .NET services for Internet capabilities. My personal view. This is much like its XML strategy to this point on the desktop -- it's only for integrating with vertical apps, not something MS Office is based on at all. In fact, .NET strategy has mirrored MS Office's XML almost to the letter -- promises then failures to deliver, new promises and then more failiures to deliver. Vista is not .NET, and Indigo leaves much to be desired. Microsoft's Office 11 (2003) XML sits unused and isn't the foundation of the supposed XML behind Office 12 (2005) either. Which begs many to question what strategy Microsoft really has for .NET -- starting with themselves internally. That pretty much mirrors Microsoft's XML strategy to. A lot of talk, a lot of cool releases, but nothing of any substance to build a business on. Story: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1837730,00.asp -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 24 15:54:48 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] First GeForce 6100 + nForce 430 (GbE, 4xSATA, ALC880-8ch) hit NewEgg for $79 ... Message-ID: <20051024195448.18755.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> One-day (?) only sale that ends at 5:30pm EST Wednesday 10/26 (?) ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128315 -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From whittake at sbaflorida.com Mon Oct 24 12:25:29 2005 From: whittake at sbaflorida.com (Homer Whittaker) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] First GeForce 6100 + nForce 430 (GbE, 4xSATA, ALC880-8ch) hit NewEgg for $79 ... In-Reply-To: <20051024195448.18755.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051024195448.18755.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200510241225.29530.whittake@sbaflorida.com> Bryan am I ever going to be able to use the ASUS V9520/TD/N/128M that I purchased some time ago? Homer Whittaker On Monday 24 October 2005 15:54, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > One-day (?) only sale that ends at 5:30pm EST Wednesday 10/26 > (?) ... > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128315 From dave at dgnal.net Mon Oct 24 17:23:43 2005 From: dave at dgnal.net (David Simmons) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] First GeForce 6100 + nForce 430 (GbE, 4xSATA, ALC880-8ch) hit NewEgg for $79 ... In-Reply-To: <20051024195448.18755.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051024195448.18755.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1222.24.0.225.173.1130189023.squirrel@mail.dgnal.net> > One-day (?) only sale that ends at 5:30pm EST Wednesday 10/26 > (?) ... > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128315 How's $72.50 - everyday price at MWave.com? http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=BA21989&CartID=done&nextloc= From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 24 17:44:34 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: First GeForce 6100 + nForce 430 (GbE, 4xSATA, ALC880-8ch) hit others ... In-Reply-To: <1222.24.0.225.173.1130189023.squirrel@mail.dgnal.net> Message-ID: <20051024214434.7159.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> David Simmons wrote: > How's $72.50 - everyday price at MWave.com? http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=BA21989&CartID=done&nextloc= Actually, MWave has been regularly beating NewEgg.COM on pricing, especially in CPU combos. Now if people only had the GeForce 6150 + nForce 430 combination in-stock. Sigh, I guess I just need to wait a few more weeks. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From paulf at quillandmouse.com Mon Oct 24 22:13:05 2005 From: paulf at quillandmouse.com (Paul M Foster) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? Message-ID: <20051025021305.GC25692@quillandmouse.com> Bryan (or others): At one point, you made the claim that the .NET framework was based on Java (1.1?) code that Microsoft had licensed from Sun. Am I remembering that correctly? If so, are there any articles to be found (preferably online) which provide evidence for this claim? You're the only one I've heard make it, but then again I don't pore over a bunch of tech articles all the time. Paul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 08:00:32 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051025021305.GC25692@quillandmouse.com> References: <20051025021305.GC25692@quillandmouse.com> Message-ID: <1130241632.5158.17.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 22:13 -0400, Paul M Foster wrote: > Bryan (or others): > At one point, you made the claim that the .NET framework was based on > Java (1.1?) code that Microsoft had licensed from Sun. Am I remembering > that correctly? If so, are there any articles to be found (preferably > online) which provide evidence for this claim? You're the only one I've > heard make it, but then again I don't pore over a bunch of tech articles > all the time. The .NET C# language, common language run-time and development framework are based on Java 1.1. .NET is more than just the language, run-time and development framework. Why people are in disbelief over this, and many other things that Microsoft has used in the past, is beyond me. Especially from even UNIX users, although the overwhelming majority of UNIX developers know the lineage of a great number of things. Microsoft legally licensed Java from Sun. Microsoft was already working on a Win32-only Java implementation well in advance of any lawsuit over the license by Sun. This included many core changes you now find in C#. While Sun was successful in preventing Microsoft from using the trademark in the lawsuit, Microsoft fought like hell, and won, the right to continue using the code through the last release they were given at the time, Java 1.1. If anything, Microsoft was brilliant in getting what they wanted, and Sun a little too naive to realize that it was far more about the branding. Once Microsoft was freed of the contractual obligations with Sun, but still had the source code, they then didn't tip-toe any longer. They improved the language which resulted in C#. You'll notice every single limitation of Java exists in every single area of .NET. E.g., the language inheritance limitations of the Java Native Interface (JNI) are the same of those in the Common Language Run-time. Again, the development timeline shows that Microsoft basically took what they had already forked from Java and, now with the "gloves off," finished what they wanted. But this matters little now. Microsoft relicensed Java as of version 1.4, and Microsoft and Sun are working together on Java and .NET. Microsoft did this because they were well beyond on .NET Indigo services for NT 6.0. As far as "proof," please remember all the "Microsoft could not be reached for comment" statements in articles. Microsoft uses all sorts of sort code they can legally (and in a several cases, have done illegally or through licensing) in Windows and other products. They'd be stupid not too, and in knowing many Microsoft developers, their attitude was "Sun left us no choice." The reality is that Microsoft knows that nearly all developers know, and it's not really a big deal. Some in the media go crazy sometimes, but I don't know why. The only people who care are the CIOs and other executives that still believe Microsoft invented everything from the ground-up. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Tue Oct 25 09:47:44 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1506@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > The reality is that Microsoft knows that nearly all developers know, > and it's not really a big deal. The reality I've seen is that *very* *few* people understand the connection. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 11:29:54 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1506@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1506@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <1130254194.5158.23.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 09:47 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > The reality I've seen is that *very* *few* people understand the > connection. Of IT people, yes. And they wouldn't think to realize that NTFS uses the libz (GZip) algorithm for its LZ77 compression either. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 11:32:51 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <1130254194.5158.23.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1506@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> <1130254194.5158.23.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1130254371.5158.27.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 10:29 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > And they wouldn't think to realize that NTFS uses the libz (GZip) > algorithm for its LZ77 compression either. In fact, I have read several articles that believe Microsoft licensed it from PKWare. The LZ77 algorithm is free, and libz is BSD licensed. Every single libz vunerability has shown up in NT. If anyone honestly believes that Microsoft created C# and .NET in less than a year, then I'm all ears. Until then, the Microsoft developers I knew, the ones that said they should beat Sun at its own Java game and not fork, are my source. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 11:36:27 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <1130254371.5158.27.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1506@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> <1130254194.5158.23.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1130254371.5158.27.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1130254587.5158.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 10:32 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > If anyone honestly believes that Microsoft created C# and .NET in less > than a year, then I'm all ears. > Until then, the Microsoft developers I knew, the ones that said they > should beat Sun at its own Java game and not fork, are my source. Sorry to answer myself yet a 3rd time, but a major issue I see repeatedly is people who think that C#/.NET development wasn't underway until Sun won/lost their lawsuit -- let alone when it was first filed. I see the same when it comes to NT. Heck, the #1 question I see posed about Linux gaming from many Windows users is, "Why doesn't Linux have something like DirectX or OpenGL?" People don't know lineage and they expect the media to teach it to them. Most of the media is focused on the here and now. And so few of them have an understanding -- even the 2 ZD Linux columists show their ignorance from time to time (although Jason does is far, far less than Steve). -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Tue Oct 25 11:45:38 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1511@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 09:47 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > > The reality I've seen is that *very* *few* people understand the > > connection. > > Of IT people, yes. I've had Java and .NET developers dispute it also. > And they wouldn't think to realize that NTFS uses the libz (GZip) > algorithm for its LZ77 compression either. Interestingly the CAB archive format used, in part, the LZX file format devised by Jonathan Forbes for the AmigaOS platform who was later hired by Microsoft. http://xavprods.free.fr/lzx/ has more in item 7 in the FAQ. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 13:41:48 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F1511@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051025174148.74958.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > I've had Java and .NET developers dispute it also. And they said ... ??? I would be interested to find out where .NET/C# came from. Microsoft's legal team did their best to secure the rights to the Java source code in their counter to Sun's claims. Although it went quietly reported in the media, there was literally a huge "WHEW!!!" in Redmond. It's not like Microsoft just took Java and made it C# overnight. It was literally developed over years before the lawsuit was finally settled. It wouldn't have surprised me if Microsoft had a contingency plan if they didn't gain the rights to use the Java source code. Luckily, they did. Furthermore, from what I understand, a lot of Microsoft's efforts were on improving the CLR/VM over the JRE -- especially the Win32/x86 performance. That was really what was driving a lot of the changes anyway. Even those Java supporters inside of Microsoft always felt they could beat Java at its own game on the Win32/x86 platform. So it wouldn't surprise me if the CLR/VM is radically changed from the original JRE 1.1. But the language, limitations, class libraries and other things are very inter-operable because they are the same base. That's how Microsoft has been able to incorporate new Java 1.4 code into C#/.NET under their new license, and vice-versa for Sun from .NET class libs. > Interestingly the CAB archive format used, in part, the LZX > file format devised by Jonathan Forbes for the AmigaOS > platform who was later hired by Microsoft. > http://xavprods.free.fr/lzx/ has more in item 7 in the > FAQ. No one would say Microsoft doesn't use what it considers the best tool available -- be it BSD-like Open Source, what they can buy (typically the #3 product on the market, although sometimes #1 when an option, etc...). -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 14:03:32 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051025174148.74958.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051025180332.72408.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > And they said ... ??? I would be interested to find out > where .NET/C# came from. That should read "I would be intereted to find out where THEY THINK .NET/C# came from." -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From paulf at quillandmouse.com Tue Oct 25 14:51:20 2005 From: paulf at quillandmouse.com (Paul M Foster) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <1130241632.5158.17.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <20051025021305.GC25692@quillandmouse.com> <1130241632.5158.17.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <20051025185120.GE25692@quillandmouse.com> On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 07:00:32AM -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 22:13 -0400, Paul M Foster wrote: > > Bryan (or others): > > At one point, you made the claim that the .NET framework was based on > > Java (1.1?) code that Microsoft had licensed from Sun. Am I remembering > > that correctly? If so, are there any articles to be found (preferably > > online) which provide evidence for this claim? You're the only one I've > > heard make it, but then again I don't pore over a bunch of tech articles > > all the time. > > The .NET C# language, common language run-time and development framework > are based on Java 1.1. .NET is more than just the language, run-time > and development framework. > > Why people are in disbelief over this, and many other things that > Microsoft has used in the past, is beyond me. Especially from even UNIX > users, although the overwhelming majority of UNIX developers know the > lineage of a great number of things. > > Microsoft legally licensed Java from Sun. Microsoft was already working > on a Win32-only Java implementation well in advance of any lawsuit over > the license by Sun. This included many core changes you now find in C#. > While Sun was successful in preventing Microsoft from using the > trademark in the lawsuit, Microsoft fought like hell, and won, the right > to continue using the code through the last release they were given at > the time, Java 1.1. > > If anything, Microsoft was brilliant in getting what they wanted, and > Sun a little too naive to realize that it was far more about the > branding. > > Once Microsoft was freed of the contractual obligations with Sun, but > still had the source code, they then didn't tip-toe any longer. They > improved the language which resulted in C#. You'll notice every single > limitation of Java exists in every single area of .NET. E.g., the > language inheritance limitations of the Java Native Interface (JNI) are > the same of those in the Common Language Run-time. > > Again, the development timeline shows that Microsoft basically took what > they had already forked from Java and, now with the "gloves off," > finished what they wanted. But this matters little now. Microsoft > relicensed Java as of version 1.4, and Microsoft and Sun are working > together on Java and .NET. Microsoft did this because they were well > beyond on .NET Indigo services for NT 6.0. > > As far as "proof," please remember all the "Microsoft could not be > reached for comment" statements in articles. Microsoft uses all sorts > of sort code they can legally (and in a several cases, have done > illegally or through licensing) in Windows and other products. They'd > be stupid not too, and in knowing many Microsoft developers, their > attitude was "Sun left us no choice." The reality is that Microsoft > knows that nearly all developers know, and it's not really a big deal. > Some in the media go crazy sometimes, but I don't know why. > > The only people who care are the CIOs and other executives that still > believe Microsoft invented everything from the ground-up. I'm not disputing Microsoft's propensity for scarfing and using others' technology. Let's face it-- DOS originally came from someone else. Nor am I necessarily saying .NET _isn't_ based on Java. But based on what you've said, it seems it would be fair to say that you strongly believe and have what you consider convincing evidence that .NET (C#, whatever) is based on Java. But there does not seem to be actual _proof_ of this. I'm not particularly trying to give you a hard time. I'm just trying to make the distinction between facts and opinions in this case. Paul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 15:18:29 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051025185120.GE25692@quillandmouse.com> Message-ID: <20051025191830.66121.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Paul M Foster wrote: > I'm not disputing Microsoft's propensity for scarfing and > using others' technology. Let's face it-- DOS originally > came from someone else. Nor am I necessarily saying .NET > _isn't_ based on Java. > But based on what you've said, it seems it would be fair to > say that you strongly believe and have what you consider > convincing evidence that .NET (C#, whatever) is based on > Java. But there does not seem to be actual _proof_ of this. What proof will satisfy? I don't have access to Microsoft's version control repository. The greatest victory for the future of .NET/C# was when Microsoft ensured the rights to the source code they paid for. > I'm not particularly trying to give you a hard time. I'm > just trying to make the distinction between facts and > opinions in this case. My viewpoint isn't opinion. It's based on what I have been told from contractors who worked at Microsoft. It is 2nd hand, yes. But it's quite factual that C#/.NET has lineage to the Java 1.1 code. There was nothing illegal about Microsoft using it. It had the legal right to use Java code, it just couldn't call it Java. Microsoft didn't have to create a "clean room" C# product. In fact, it was the lawsuit that said they had the rights to all Java source code, they just couldn't call it Java. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 15:33:01 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051025185120.GE25692@quillandmouse.com> Message-ID: <20051025193301.81924.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here's a good chronology from several years ago ... http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,467080,00.asp It charts what Microsoft was doing with J++ and Raw Native Interface (RNI). Then it was frozen by the lawsuit, especially since Microsoft's implementations failed the Java compliance tests. That's when Microsoft had to find a way out. The CLR is basically the RNI reborn. The entire class hierarchy was renamed almost 1:1. And then Microsoft re-introduced a few aspects of C++ that was not in the Java 1.1 codebase. Now let's be clear here, C# is _not_ Java 2+ (1.2+). Sun changed a lot in Java 2. And if you Google around, you'll read a lot of other articles that talk about how far Java innovated and was adopted through 1.2+ while Microsoft tried to get its reborn and modified version out. This is not some sort of "conspiracy theory." This is lineage. People want to look at things in absolutes. The developer world is not absolutes. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 15:52:06 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Dell 3100cn for $264 shipped ... Message-ID: <20051025195207.61378.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is the exact printer I have (upgraded with generic 256MiB PC133 SO-DIMM SDRAM to 320MiB total), although I paid $323 for it 3 months ago. It does Postscript Level 3, has a 10/100 Network Interface and has quality that is just outstanding. Cost per page is not too shabby either (better than nearly any HP) -- despite the fact that only Dell provides the cartridges right now (I'm going to see if I can use a toner refill kit). You'll need to pad your order with $1 more to get the coupon to work. You could opt for a memory upgrade (generic PC133 SO-DIMM is much, much cheaper though). http://dealnews.com/deals/Dell-Color-Laser-Printers-from-224-shipped/98551.html BTW, although the 3000cn is $40 cheaper, I highly recommend the 3100cn. Not only for the Postscript, but 64MiB isn't enough to print out 8x10 color. You'll need 96-192MiB to do that. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 15:54:49 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Logitech Z-5500 for $184 ... Message-ID: <20051025195449.44123.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Another Dell deal, the Logitech Z-5500 5.1 DTS 96/24 system is $184 from Dell ($18 for shipping). I have it's predecessor, the Z-680, for my home theater -- optical input from X-Box, DirecTiVO and DVD (using a SIIG 3-input switcher). You can't buy a refurb for that price. http://dealnews.com/deals/Logitech-Z-5500-5-1-THX-speaker-system-for-184/98597.html -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From paulf at quillandmouse.com Tue Oct 25 18:38:55 2005 From: paulf at quillandmouse.com (Paul M Foster) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051025191830.66121.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051025185120.GE25692@quillandmouse.com> <20051025191830.66121.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051025223855.GF25692@quillandmouse.com> On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 12:18:29PM -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Paul M Foster wrote: > > I'm not disputing Microsoft's propensity for scarfing and > > using others' technology. Let's face it-- DOS originally > > came from someone else. Nor am I necessarily saying .NET > > _isn't_ based on Java. > > But based on what you've said, it seems it would be fair to > > say that you strongly believe and have what you consider > > convincing evidence that .NET (C#, whatever) is based on > > Java. But there does not seem to be actual _proof_ of this. > > What proof will satisfy? I don't have access to Microsoft's > version control repository. The greatest victory for the > future of .NET/C# was when Microsoft ensured the rights to > the source code they paid for. > A statement from Microsoft. An email from a developer known to have worked on C#. A well-researched news story from a credible entity with its own verifiable sources. > > I'm not particularly trying to give you a hard time. I'm > > just trying to make the distinction between facts and > > opinions in this case. > > My viewpoint isn't opinion. It's based on what I have been > told from contractors who worked at Microsoft. It is 2nd > hand, yes. That's where we differ. A contractor from Microsoft tells you X. Was he lying? Did he actually know what he was talking about? Did he actually have access to the appropriate code and materials? Did he actually work on that particular project? Can we verify that? Was he just yanking your chain? Is this just a prank to see if his false information will ever come out in newspapers? Did he feel there was some unknown benefit to having you believe a false statement? This is why hearsay isn't acceptable in a court of law as proof. Even if Bob says he saw Jim commit X crime, we don't convict on that supposedly eyewitness testimony alone. Let me reiterate: I'm not disputing your idea that C# et al are based on the Java codebase from that period. You could well be right. Evidence (including the article you cited in the other email), seems to point in that direction. I'm just pointing out that this is an opinion, not a fact. People lie, mis-remember, make things up to fill in gaps or to enhance their own reputations or avoid trouble all the time. "Reliable sources" may or may not be. And hearing the same lie from more than one source doesn't then make it true. Moreover, two people who tell you the same thing may well believe it's true, but still have both been lied to about it. AGAIN, I'm not trying to impugn your sources or you. I'm just trying to convey what I consider the difference between facts and opinions. Paul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 20:21:41 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051025223855.GF25692@quillandmouse.com> Message-ID: <20051026002141.19297.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Paul M Foster wrote: > A statement from Microsoft. You're kidding me, right? Microsoft has never admitted to anything. Even when they were caught red-handed in using BSD/Apache systems as reverse proxy systems to NT/IIS, they still downplayed it. One reporter finally had the balls to ask and Microsoft had to respond that they were using public domain or public licensed for some things in accordance with their license, and they still didn't name specifics. I'm sure if did the same with regard to .NET and C#, Microsoft would merely be non-specific by saying they use code they have licensed. Furthermore, they still outsource massively to Aikami and others who run Linux for DNS and HTTP. Same deal with a lot of their code development, 3rd party contractors. It's a lot of "we only use what we make" 'hands clean' type stuff, when they outsource a lot that actually goes in their products and services their Internet front. > An email from a developer known to have worked on C#. Can you say "professional suicide"? It's hard enough that I get tidbits from .NET developers every now and then. I finally got one to admit they were not putting anything related to the .NET security model into Windows Vista a few months ago. It's like a reporter revealing sources, I'll destroy his professional capability. > A well-researched news story from a credible entity with > its own verifiable sources. You're still kidding me right? First off, you don't consider Ziff-Davis to be credible? I know they are naive at times, but they are very MS-focused. They get the lead stories from > That's where we differ. What don't you think is reality? No, Microsoft COM/COM+ is _not_ based on Java. Microsoft has their own objects. Microsoft has their own approaches in their own OS. That portion of the .NET model is clearly built around the OS. There are other aspects to the .NET system that are MS. MDAC, ADO, etc... are based on legacy Windows approaches. WinForms, etc... are as well. Those portions are not from Java at all either. But the language, the 1:1 class libraries and the native interface, all based on prior J++ and interface work. .NET and C# was just the evolution from what Microsoft was already doing to Java, making it Win32/Intel-only. Had Microsoft not secured the rights to use Java code in the final ruling, then they would have had to make a "clean room" break. But they did secure the rights. It was the main thing they were continually engaged with Sun over. Sun stopped Microsoft from using the Java trademark, but in the end, Microsoft proved they licensed the right to Java code to the judge. .NET/C# was the avenue to get people off of the now "dead" J++ product, while still delivering on all the promises of a native interface and run-time. It also didn't put the good work that countless J++ developers did on their Win32 implementation in their honest effort to "beat Sun Java." > A contractor from Microsoft tells you X. Was he lying? Understand I've known many, many Microsoft people over the years. More recent have only been passer-bys. Engineers tend to be a bit looser with the tongue, at least in voice (where nothing is written). BTW, do you know how many times people like yourself have come up and had this same attitude towards what I say? It's been going on since before NT 3.1 was released. There are so many things that are common knowledge from using the products early on, seeing the lineage and development, etc... Is .NET/C# just Java? Hell no. But is Java 1.1 code in .NET/C#? Of course! Microsoft not only had every right to it, but their entire work of _years_ was using it! To start over would have pushed them back another 3+ years. > Did he actually know what he was talking about? Ummm, considering some of the names I've been corresponding with over just the last year ... um, YEAH! Microsoft took a renewed interest in me on my knowledge of how to hack and compromise MS Exchange with properly formed RFC821/822 headers. And it included 1 core MS employee (not a contractor). In fact, we went a few rounds on .NET, and where I see the problem is -- i.e., lack of actual use in Windows Vista. > Did he actually have access to the appropriate code and > materials? Did he actually work on that particular project? > Can we verify that? Was he just yanking your chain? Hey, you can assume 100% in my e-mail comes out of my ass if you want. I could really care less. > Is this just a prank to see if his false information > will ever come out in newspapers? What "prank"??? Why would it be "big news" -- outside of the pundits -- if Microsoft had to admit that the C# .NET 1.x codebase and class libs are comprised of 60% of old Java 1.1 and the latest .NET 2.0 will be around 40% of new Java 1.4/1.5? It's one of those "I can't believe MS used Java" non-issues, just like the "I can't believe MS uses Open Source" non-issues I just posted recently. > Did he feel there was some unknown benefit to having you > believe a false statement? It's not just 1 guy dude. This has been going around for over 5 years now -- before .NET was even announced. Microsoft had a serious issue of what they were going to do with their J++ product line, especially all the Win32-only work they had done in their run-time. Several people told me of their frustration with it all. And the fears of what a negative ruling on the Java source code rights might result in. > This is why hearsay isn't acceptable in a court of law as > proof. This isn't hearsay, it's more like trade secrets. And they only way you're going to force Microsoft to admit anything is if you _not_only_ subpenia them, but you show _need_ on why you need to know the lineage of .NET/C#. But there is _no_ chance of that. Microsoft not only won the right to use the Java 1.1 source code (which was after that article was originally written -- as they noted in the update, they were so allowed), but they have re-licensed Java 1.4+ from Sun in the big hoopla of late 2003 to "work together." > Even if Bob says he saw Jim commit X crime, What crime are we talking about. There was *NO*CRIME*! > we don't convict on that supposedly eyewitness testimony > alone. Dude, you're in left field. This is all lineage, licensing (which Microsoft _did_ license, and was _allowed_ to use), trade secrets, etc... > Let me reiterate: I'm not disputing your idea that C# et al > are based on the Java codebase from that period. You could > well be right. Evidence (including the article you cited in > the other email), seems to point in that direction. I think you're too focused on making this an "absolute." The C#/CLR portion is just one _small_ portion of .NET. Yes, the CLR and the C# class libraries are the major "interoperabilitiy" portion of .NET. And yes, Microsoft radically changed the run-time and native interfaces from what Sun had in their run-time (let alone the JNI has changed significantly since). > I'm just pointing out that this is an opinion, not a fact. It is based on commentary I (among many, many others) have been privy to 2nd hand and insider knowledge of real, technical lineage. > People lie, mis-remember, make things up to fill in gaps or > to enhance their own reputations or avoid trouble all the > time. Feel free to assume this about me. > "Reliable sources" may or may not be. > And hearing the same lie from more than one source > doesn't then make it true. Moreover, two people who tell > you the same thing may well believe it's true, but still > have both been lied to about it. > AGAIN, I'm not trying to impugn your sources or you. I'm > just trying to convey what I consider the difference > between facts and opinions. You're talking in absolutes. I honestly don't know what you want or think. CASE-IN-POINT ... Is your viewpoint to state that Microsoft threw away all Java source code, all their existing J++ work, all their existing native Win32 interfaces and run-times that were based on Java 1.1 source code and created C#/.NET as "clean room"? Could you please answer that for me in a "yes" or "no" absolute? See what I mean? It's like saying man created the world. Yes, we have created a lot in our time, but we still created it from the domain we were given and allowed to do with as we pleased. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 20:49:26 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051026002141.19297.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051026004926.48235.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > First off, you don't consider Ziff-Davis to be credible? I > know they are naive at times, but they are very MS-focused. > They get the lead stories from Oops, didn't finish that. What I was saying was that Ziff-Davis tends to be "selective" with what they say about Microsoft, so they get the lead buzz on Microsoft announcements. Other media outlets have "cut themselves off" by releasing "less than flattering" stories on MS. So when a ZD publication actually says something (like Mary Jo Foley does on occassion, although she's often a bug-eye "wow, I can't believe MS would do such a thing!" far too often), it's typically something MS can't deny. Furthermore, I'm not some "conspiracy theory" wennie. I really _hate_it_ when there is not sound, technical reasons on MS conspiracy theories. My favorite one was the comment by Nicholas P. that Microsoft must be using Linux in Windows because it's getting more stable (how clueless was that?!?!?!). An effort to uncover that Microsoft used Java 1.1 code in C#/.NET would be just like an effort to uncover that Microsoft uses BSD code in various portions of the Windows OS, and even SCO UNIX code before that, let alone OS/2 they were entitled to (although the Windows 95 team used newer code after the agreement expired in 1993 which IBM signed away their rights to sue in 1995). It's all common knowledge from those who know the development going on before it was named C# and .NET. It's not surprising. And the _only_ people who are surprised today are the ones who didn't know that Microsoft licensed Java and used it to build a Win32-only platform implementation -- let alone are ignorant of the fact that Microsoft has re-licensed Java as of 1.4+ and re-gained access to its newer source releases. How much C#/.NET is still based on Java is the only speculation. Much like how much of the BSD IP stack has been modified in NT, where libz, OpenSSL, etc... are being used in different NT components, etc... It's all speculation. But if you have any "evidence/proof" that Microsoft threw out _all_ developments based on Java 1.0/1.1, including the existing J++ codebase that it had hundreds of thousands of developers relying on (and they would have to transition them off of), the outstandingly performing native, Win32-only interface/run-time it used, etc... when it created C# and the CLR, then I'm all ears. ;-> Until then, I rather enjoyed the many discussions I had on how Microsoft was able to transition their "frozen" J++ work to C# and the resulting CLR. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From damien at mc-kenna.com Tue Oct 25 21:04:34 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051026002141.19297.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051026002141.19297.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <435ED622.1080606@mc-kenna.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > But the language, the 1:1 class libraries and the native > interface, all based on prior J++ and interface work. .NET > and C# was just the evolution from what Microsoft was already > doing to Java, making it Win32/Intel-only. > That was the core aspect of one of the court cases, that Microsoft was diluting the Java brand by planning all these extensions to the platform that were Windows-only. I remember that from the mid-90's just after they released Visual Studio 6 and J++, but heck that's ten years ago so its no wonder most people don't remember. It was *years* from then until the .NET stuff was released, one of their longest development times and (speculation) quite possibly a key reason was the court cases that may have legally tied their hands while the cases were on-going; IANAL so I could be way off base here. >> Can we verify that? Was he just yanking your chain? >> > > Hey, you can assume 100% in my e-mail comes out of my ass if > you want. I could really care less. > You're getting a bit worked up, Bryan, he's just fishing for additional evidence. > It's not just 1 guy dude. This has been going around for > over 5 years now -- before .NET was even announced. > It goes back as far as the Visual Studio 6 release (or there abouts)... >> This is why hearsay isn't acceptable in a court of law as >> proof. >> > This isn't hearsay, it's more like trade secrets. "*and* *some* *things* *that* *should* *not* *have* *been* *forgotten* were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth..." > But there is _no_ chance of that. Microsoft not only won the > right to use the Java 1.1 source code (which was after that > article was originally written -- as they noted in the > update, they were so allowed), but they have re-licensed Java > 1.4+ from Sun in the big hoopla of late 2003 to "work > together." > One of the two biggest legal coups they won. >> Even if Bob says he saw Jim commit X crime, >> > > What crime are we talking about. There was *NO*CRIME*! > He's drawing an analogy. You're getting a bit worked up, Bryan. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Oct 25 21:25:41 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <435ED622.1080606@mc-kenna.com> Message-ID: <20051026012541.90989.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > I remember that from the mid-90's just after they released > Visual Studio 6 and J++, but heck that's ten years ago Actually, the VS6 line is more like 7 years ago, not quite a decade. But yes, the Java license is about a decade old. > so its no wonder most people don't remember. In fact, starting about 4 years ago until even now, there are countless people who tell me that Java was a "fad" and that it even "failed." Why? Because they get their products from Microsoft. My my how people are addicted to brand naming. Microsoft has survived because it KNOWS that branding is EVERYTHING. They are completely oblivious to all the JSP and app servers out there. > You're getting a bit worked up, Bryan, he's just fishing > for additional evidence. I'm not getting worked up. I just said, hey, at this point, assume it's coming 100% out of my ass. ;-> There is no way to prove anything to the satisfaction of some people. And there's no legal reason why Microsoft would have to come out and say, "yes, all our work is based on the Java code we had the rights to." To do such would kill the branding. But EVERYONE KNEW once the court ordered that Microsoft had full rights to use the Java code it had licensed (through the moment Sun stopped sending them updates), that saved Microsoft a good 3+ years in development of their "Java alternative." People who don't want to believe that aren't going to ever find any proof that is satisfactory. They will assume that Microsoft invented C# from thin air, and that the CLR had nothing to do with their prior Win32-only, native Java interface. > It goes back as far as the Visual Studio 6 release (or > there abouts)... Correct. The J++ product and all Microsoft "Java" develpoments were frozen as of the version 6 line. > "*and* *some* *things* *that* *should* *not* *have* *been* > *forgotten* were lost. History became legend. Legend became > myth..." Yada yada yada ... been there, just another story. > One of the two biggest legal coups they won. I distinctly remember a 1999 article commenting how Sun didn't realize what Microsoft wanted out of the Java licensing agreement, and how Microsoft's lawyers gave them exactly what they needed to secure the source code to Java they would have received before Sun started withholding it. I can no longer find the article on-line, but I'm fairly certain it was an IDG publication (InfoWorld I believe). > He's drawing an analogy. You're getting a bit worked up, > Bryan. I know, but what he's looking for is absolutes. I assume he's dealing with nay-sayers that want "proof." So if those nay-sayers want "proof" that Microsoft used any Java in C#, I want proof that Microsoft created C# "clean room" -- especially that CLR. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From paulf at quillandmouse.com Tue Oct 25 23:36:55 2005 From: paulf at quillandmouse.com (Paul M Foster) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] .NET based on Java? In-Reply-To: <20051026002141.19297.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051025223855.GF25692@quillandmouse.com> <20051026002141.19297.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051026033655.GG25692@quillandmouse.com> On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 05:21:41PM -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > BTW, do you know how many times people like yourself have > come up and had this same attitude towards what I say? It's > been going on since before NT 3.1 was released. There are so > many things that are common knowledge from using the products > early on, seeing the lineage and development, etc... Yes, I'm aware of how many people like me have come up and had this attitude towards what you say. I've seen it happen on several lists you've been on. And this exchange is exactly why they do that. The BS makes a PRONOUNCEMENT. Others, less technically savvy and less immersed in the minutiae of computer technology, at first consider the pronouncement bizarre. While it makes complete sense to The BS, it doesn't fit with what us peons see. Most of us peons just ignore it. But sometimes one of us challenges The BS. The BS thinks they're calling him a liar or impugning his technical insights or whatever. So The BS presses his point even harder. But they're just looking for what _they'd_ consider "proof". Unfortunately, none of this forestalls the ensuing mininuke explosion. Just like this present exchange. I'll say it a third time. I'm not attempting to challenge the idea that Microsoft scarfed Java 1.x and used it to make C# and other components of .NET. As I said twice before, you could be right, and probably are. I'm not attempting to challenge your credibility or your technical knowledge, either. The whole point of this exercise was to determine the basis for what you're saying, and whether the utterances could therefore be considered fact or opinion. Educated opinion, no matter how educated, does not make a fact, even if the opinion is true. > > Can we verify that? Was he just yanking your chain? > > Hey, you can assume 100% in my e-mail comes out of my ass if > you want. I could really care less. > If you didn't care, you wouldn't respond. ;-} > > People lie, mis-remember, make things up to fill in gaps or > > to enhance their own reputations or avoid trouble all the > > time. > > Feel free to assume this about me. > Don't be paranoid. I'm not even implying anything of the sort about you. > You're talking in absolutes. > I honestly don't know what you want or think. > You can think of it as absolutes if you like. What you're considering a fact, I consider an educated opinion from a semi-insider. > CASE-IN-POINT ... > > Is your viewpoint to state that Microsoft threw away all Java > source code, all their existing J++ work, all their existing > native Win32 interfaces and run-times that were based on Java > 1.1 source code and created C#/.NET as "clean room"? Heh, for all I know, Microsoft bought C# from a shop in Seattle and paid the guy $50,000 for it, just like DOS. I don't know. I have no proof either way. The fact that they had access to Java 1.x source and they subsequently developed something very much like it called C# doesn't prove the two things have any relation. Yes, logically it makes sense that the two things are related. But that's not proof. I'd say there's maybe a 95% probability, but that doesn't make it a fact. I'll give _you_ an analogy. I've been listening to these health food people for years. I'm constantly astounded by the kind of things they pass off as facts. There's one lady (a doctor) who wrote a book claiming that the cause of cancer is isopropol alcohol. She dissects people with cancer and always finds isopropol alcohol in cancerous tissues. Therefore, cancer is caused by isopropol alcohol. This is passed off as FACT by someone who should be in a position to know. And yet the truth is that it's an opinion, and a weakly justified one at that. Years ago, it was wheat grass that was going to cure everything. Then it was super blue-green algae. All presented as facts by people who've studied a lot more than I have about these things. It's almost like a spectator sport now, to watch these people and marvel at what they come up with next to believe in. And the funny thing is that the health food people I know are the sickest people I know. Another analogy, also in the medical field. At one point, doctors and studies decided that salt was bad for you. A few years later, it was found that, no, salt is good for you. Same thing with eggs. Same thing with alcohol. Pick something you eat, and some study somewhere has probably shown it was bad for you. Wait a few years, and another study will show the exact opposite. Two contrary facts means one's false. And this isn't just one guy telling another guy(s) something's true. This is guys with years of schooling and millions of dollars behind their research. Don't tell me about what a racket medical research is. That's not the point. The point is that here are "experts" saying one thing today and quite another tomorrow. Their "facts" aren't facts. I'm not trying to impugn anyone's character. But I've been lied to enough that I've developed an extremely thick skepticism. When someone says something's a fact which seems odd to me, I get very interested in what I'd term "proof" for that fact. If you think such proof involves "absolutes", I'm okay with that. I'm willing to take a lot of things on faith (how do I know China exists? I've never been there); I just want to know if my faith is based on fact or opinion. I'll leave you alone now. I just wanted to satisfy myself on this point of fact versus opinion, generally, and specifically with regard to the Java/C# thing. I'm satisfied. You can continue to argue about it if you like. ;-} Paul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Oct 26 17:28:30 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] For all you VB6 developers, MS has released it's VB6->VB.NET books for free ... Message-ID: <20051026212830.17270.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Something mentioned on DealNews, and you certainly can't go broke when you don't have to spend anything. ;-> "Upgrading Microsoft Visual Basic 6.0 to Microsoft Visual Basic .NET" http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbrun/staythepath/additionalresources/UpgradingVB6/default.aspx "Introducing Visual Basic 2005 for Developers" http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbrun/staythepath/additionalresources/IntroTo2005/default.aspx -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 27 12:10:37 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Corel slower to support OpenDocument, despite standardization effort ... Message-ID: <20051027161038.63987.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Couple of interesting reads. Personally, I think Corel is going to slit its own throat if it doesn't get on-board with OpenDocument XML. It could sell a lot more copies to medical and law firms if it would guarantee quality interoperability with ODX. http://www.betanews.com/article/Interview_Corel_on_Sun_Open_Standards/1129672161 http://www.consortiuminfo.org/newsblog/blog.php?ID=1663 And in other news, Microsoft continues to not only snub ODF, but hasn't been exactly forthcoming on Office 12 XML any more than they were on Office 11 (2003) XML, which not only didn't document the back-end formats, not only isn't usable without the MS Office suite, but isn't even compatible with Office 12 XML. Standards or proprietary, MS Office remains a moving target for itself. As the MS Office for Mac developers have pointed out, it has a lot to do with the x86/Win32-only codebase itself. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Thu Oct 27 12:54:50 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Corel slower to support OpenDocument, despite standardization effort ... Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F15A5@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > http://www.betanews.com/article/Interview_Corel_on_Sun_Open_St > andards/1129672161 You'll notice a comment in there from me. Basically Corel are seeing their market disappear thanks to both a free office system and an international standard which they don't support, and are getting pissy about it. They don't want to interoperate because honestly it would give Wordperfect users an opening to *migrate* to OOo/SO. Also, who knows if Microsoft's cash injection a few years ago didn't have some strings attached which may be playing a part in this decision... -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 27 13:01:37 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] $34.90 Quake 4 Special DVD Edition with Quake 2 and Mission Packs ... Message-ID: <20051027170137.50269.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Want Quake 4? Don't know what it's about? Didn't fight the Strogg with Quake 2, or get through the 2 mission packs? Now you can get both game series for $34.90 on a single DVD! Both the age-old classic and new campaign based on the Doom 3 engine. DealNews post: http://dealnews.com/deals/Quake-4-Special-DVD-Edition-for-35/98846.html And both versions run on Linux as well ... Quake 4 Linux FAQ for Linux binary: http://zerowing.idsoftware.com/linux/quake4/ Linux Quake HOWTO, Quake II: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/Quake-HOWTO.html#ss5.3 -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Oct 27 13:28:44 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Corel slower to support OpenDocument, despite standardization effort ... In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D19F15A5@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <20051027172845.56409.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Damien McKenna wrote: > Basically Corel are seeing their market disappear thanks to > both a free office system and an international standard > which they don't support, and are getting pissy about it. They could change that by supporting it. A lot of firms want true Corel backward compatibility but the ultimate in compatibility with other suites. They _could_ win based on _features_ -- such as a grammar checker. It's one thing that is still an issue with OOo/SO, and the current efforts to create a grammar checker are lackluster with OOo/SO. > They don't want to interoperate because honestly it would > give Wordperfect users an opening to *migrate* to OOo/SO. I don't think they would. There would be a reason why they'd stay with Corel, a good one IMHO -- features. > Also, who knows if Microsoft's cash injection a few years > ago didn't have some strings attached which may be playing > a part in this decision... That's the Steve Litt theory and I don't buy it. Especially since the same could be said for Apple, and look where they are. MS cut off Corel before and that led Corel to Linux. Corel still has a good Linux/Open Source fanbase in-house. Why they aren't supporting ODX (why do they call it ODF?) is beyond me. It just seems like suicide. God knows *I* would like to get Corel Office with my next PC purchase just for the grammar checker. Until then, I have my updated copy of WordPerfect 8 for Linux with the Grammatik 5 Linux port that runs on newer GLibC 2.3 systems just fine. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From hubbardjw at charter.net Sat Oct 29 19:21:26 2005 From: hubbardjw at charter.net (Jerry W. Hubbard) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Palm Tungsten E2 and Linux question? Message-ID: <436403F6.8020206@charter.net> If you have setup a Palm, I'm looking at the Tungsten E2, to sync with Linux (Fedora 3/4 or CentOS) please relate any problems or success. I would also like to sync with Outlook at work, if that is possible. Any help is welcome. Google gave me some hope. :-) But, you guys may have a better suggestion than the Palm or some good pointers for the Palm. A Zaurus was my first choice, but it is out of my price range. :-( -- Jerry Hubbard hubbardjw@charter.net From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Sat Oct 29 20:17:02 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (Austin Denyer (Ozz)) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Palm Tungsten E2 and Linux question? In-Reply-To: <436403F6.8020206@charter.net> References: <436403F6.8020206@charter.net> Message-ID: <20051029201702.6a0b0989.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 18:21:26 -0500, "Jerry W. Hubbard" wrote: > > A Zaurus was my first choice, but it is out of my price range. :-( The Zaurus is nice, but there are some issues with syncing with Linux if you have the later ROM versions. In particular, 3.x - I never did get that to sync up with Linux... Regards, Ozz. From hubbardjw at charter.net Sat Oct 29 22:38:44 2005 From: hubbardjw at charter.net (Jerry W. Hubbard) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Palm Tungsten E2 and Linux question? In-Reply-To: <20051029201702.6a0b0989.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> References: <436403F6.8020206@charter.net> <20051029201702.6a0b0989.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <43643234.1020106@charter.net> Austin (Ozz) Denyer wrote: >On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 18:21:26 -0500, "Jerry W. Hubbard" > wrote: > > >>A Zaurus was my first choice, but it is out of my price range. :-( >> >> > >The Zaurus is nice, but there are some issues with syncing with Linux >if you have the later ROM versions. In particular, 3.x - I never did >get that to sync up with Linux... > >Regards, >Ozz. > > > Thanks for that heads up. -- Jerry Hubbard hubbardjw@charter.net From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 31 15:29:02 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] InFocus 61" DLP (720p) with tuners (w/card), FireWire, optical, etc... for $2, 499 + $5 shipping ... Message-ID: <20051031202902.80327.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Where is my self-control when I need it? I'm so damn tempted! The specs on this sucker make me drool! This sucker was just $7,000-9,000 not too long ago. Most people are carrying it for $2,800-3,200 now. What happened? http://dealnews.com/deals/In-Focus-Screen-Play-61-MD10-61-DLP-HDTV-Matrix-DVDs-for-2-500/99100.html?ref=dndaily Reviews ... http://reviews.cnet.com/InFocus_ScreenPlay_61md10___projection_TV___61_/4545-6485_7-31203569.html?tag=nav http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1776249,00.asp -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 31 15:37:19 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] InFocus 61" DLP (720p) with tuners (w/card), FireWire, optical, etc... for $2, 499 + $5 shipping ... In-Reply-To: <20051031202902.80327.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051031203719.51055.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Another review, good detail: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1781653,00.asp It was just from March of this year. Why did these drop so much in price? The bulb is only rated for 90 days, so is that it? Are extended warranties available on this model? Woot doesn't seem to offer one AFAICT, but someone has to. Maybe directly from InFocus? -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Oct 31 15:52:49 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:17:23 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] This might get me to switch away from DirecTV ... Message-ID: <20051031205249.27884.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ed Bott's last few Blog entries have a lot of info on DirecTV's recent split with TiVO, and the lack of FCC regulation to force CableCARD on Satellite providers. http://www.edbott.com/mediacenter/ First off, there's absolutely _no_sense_ for me to spend $700+ to get a Hughes DirecTiVO HDTV when it's going to be outdated very soon because of DirecTV's moves. I'm so glad I read up on this. Secondly, while CableCARD isn't perfected yet, it's coming on new TVs (which have firmware that can be upgraded over the Internet, such as the 61" I mentioned), especially with the 2-way FireWire. Consumers should be choosing their DVR if they want (or leaving it to the cable company if not), and get rid of the provider non-sense. Reminds me of the crap the cell phone industry is still playing with even the supposive "universal GSM" -- my $550 AT&T Treo 600 currently serves as my secondary alarm clock (no joke ;-). Third, I'm very tempted to buy that 61" DLP and go to cable after the football season ends -- or whenever BrightHouse supports CableCARD. I can go without Sunday Ticket next year, it's not that big of a deal. I'll get my own FireWire DVR for it, instead of plopping down more money for a specific provider. Anyone else considering this in the future? -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers)