From jasonb at edseek.com Mon Apr 4 23:09:35 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:57 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Tbred-B v Tbred-A Message-ID: <200504042309.36050.jasonb@edseek.com> I have a XP 2200+ which I have identified as a Tbred-A. My current CPU is a Tbred-B 1800+. Would it be to my detriment to 'upgrade' to the Tbred-A CPU? The board's a K7S5A. I'm limited to FSB133, which I'm running now with PC2700 running at 133. My current CPU: jasonb@faith:~$ cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : AuthenticAMD cpu family : 6 model : 8 model name : AMD Athlon(tm) XP 1800+ stepping : 1 cpu MHz : 1527.110 cache size : 256 KB fdiv_bug : no hlt_bug : no f00f_bug : no coma_bug : no fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 1 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 mmx fxsr sse pni syscall mmxext 3dnowext 3dnow bogomips : 3022.84 -- Jason Boxman Perl Programmer / *NIX Systems Administrator Shimberg Center for Affordable Housing | University of Florida http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 6 04:52:54 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:57 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Now 64-bit ... no real issues except Firefox x86-64 (replaced with Firefox i386) Message-ID: <1112777574.5494.10.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> I'm now running Linux/x86-64 (Fedora Core 3). I've only run into 1 issue so far and that is the fact that Red Hat is shipping Firefox x86-64 instead of Firefox i386. Why they have done this in Fedora Core 3 is beyond me, because in Fedora Core 1/2, they shipped the i386 version for plug-in compatibility. Even more ironic is that they _do_ ship HelixPlayer i386 in FC3 x86-64 (is there a HelixPlayer x86-64?), so why didn't they pair that with Firefox i386, I have no idea. Anyhoo, sure enough, _no_ plug-ins would work in Firefox x86-64. So I uninstalled it, temporarily tapped the i386 YUM repository, and got Firefox i386 (as well as Mozplugger i386). Now just about _all_ plug-ins work, including: - HelixPlayer (copy .so/.xpt). - Adobe Acrobat Reader 7.0 (copy nppdf.so) - FlashPlayer (symlink .so) - Java 1.5 (symlink .so) Outside of the Firefox issue, Fedora Core 3 seems to ship with the small subset of i386 libraries that are able to run a majority of programs -- even games like Doom3. I'm installing the UT2004 Linux/x86-64 version from the "Editor's Choice Edition" as we speak. The only thing that I couldn't get to work on FC3 x86-64 is RealPlayer 10. It wasn't just a Firefox issue either. I can load it or launch it as a plug-in in Firefox, but the problem is that once it loads a .ram, something crashes due to missing libraries it was built against. Everything I've read has said RealPlayer is not "64-bit clean" (which probably is the same issue with HelixPlayer too, hence why the i386 binary is included). Overall, I'm very impressed. The system is pretty much entirely x86-64 native, and the number of i386 libraries is minimal. Quite the opposite of XP 64-bit Edition from when I played with it a few months back. I'm not going to even bother installing that. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 6 05:18:43 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:57 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Now 64-bit ... no real issues except Firefox x86-64 (replaced with Firefox i386) In-Reply-To: <1112777574.5494.10.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <1112777574.5494.10.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1112779123.5494.13.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 01:52 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Outside of the Firefox issue, Fedora Core 3 seems to ship with the small > subset of i386 libraries that are able to run a majority of programs -- > even games like Doom3. I'm installing the UT2004 Linux/x86-64 version > from the "Editor's Choice Edition" as we speak. Ahhh ... $ file ut2004-bin ut2004-bin: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, AMD x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.4.1, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Apr 6 09:13:43 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:57 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Now 64-bit ... no real issues except Firefox x86-64(replaced with Firefox i386) Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C35@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> I need to install that, just need to work out some free disk space. Have you tried the FC4 code yet? I'd be interested to see how it has changed. On a related note, have you tried CentOS R4 yet? I'm trying to decide between it and Fedora for use on my home system. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 6 11:16:36 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:57 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Now 64-bit ... no real issues except Firefox x86-64(replaced with Firefox i386) In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C35@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C35@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <1112800596.4553.6.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 09:13 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > I need to install that, just need to work out some free disk space. Well, I'm in a small MicroATX case, only 5.5" x 12" x 13". Athlon64 3200+ and GeForce 6800GT. ;-ppp And yes, I found a true 450W with ATX12V/ATX2.0+4-pint for it. > Have you tried the FC4 code yet? I'd be interested to see how it has > changed. It's still Test 1. It's also has GCC 4.0 and other, major changes, at least in test. I consider it a ".0" revision (CL5.0?). Apparently the CL4 ABI line ends with Fedora Core 3 (CL4.1). Of course, Red Hat could decide to go back to GCC 3.x before release. They've done that before, rolled back the Beta (RHL7.3). But it doesn't look like it. > On a related note, have you tried CentOS R4 yet? I'm trying to decide > between it and Fedora for use on my home system. I have decided against using the SRPM rebuilds. I've been on both the White Box and CentOS lists almost since their inception. Various snafus, late-to-rebuild releases and other details have me wondering. I think Red Hat's Michael Tiemann hit it on the head, and even eWeek's Vaughn-Nichols seems to have as well. RHEL is for the SLAs. If you want RHEL without SLAs, you might as well running Fedora, and it's more current anyway. Fedora Core 3 is the most compatible and rock-solid community release since Red Hat Linux 7.3 IMHO. I plan on donating some of my time to Fedora Legacy to see it's upkeep when it's dropped as a current distro later this year. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From thebs413 at earthlink.net Wed Apr 6 12:59:25 2005 From: thebs413 at earthlink.net (Bryan J. Smith ) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Ziff-Davis Sensationalist Headline: "Study Finds Windows More Reliable than Linux" Message-ID: <15949292.1112806765897.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I've read through Microsoft's new study entitled "Microsoft Windows Server 2003 vs. Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS 3.0: IT Professionals Running a Production Environment (04/05)" Which is located here: http://www.veritest.com/clients/reports/microsoft/microsoft_IT_Pro.pdf The study _induces_ several scenarios and tracks the response time of several carefully qualified individuals on both Windows and Linux. All-in-all, GIVEN THE PARAMETERS (this is a key note ;-), the study does not look biased at all to me. "Key findings - In our tests, the Windows Server 2003 environment had 4:20:19 of average end-user service loss time compared to 4:59:44 of average service loss time for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS 3.0 environment on measured service loss events. Lower results are better. - In our tests, more work was completed in the Windows Server 2003 environment (280 completed tasks and events) than in the Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS 3.0 environment (248 completed tasks and events) in less average elapsed time (18:44:14 vs. 27:48:05)." Linux (and UNIX) often takes me a good 25% longer to resolve issues than Windows. Of course, I _never_ get unresolved problems or blind reboot fixes. And in many cases, I never see an issue until I reboot -- which is always rare and scheduled off-hours (whereas Windows has caused me grief at the worst times). I have documented why this is so -- largely the "piecemeal nature" of UNIX/Linux services makes it more involved to configure or resolved, but it's very, very reliable and rarely needs to be touched. Also, the lack of reboots means you rarely have to deal with reboot-time recovery, and when you do, it's entirely off-hours (never had an issue to the contrary except once, long ago). NT is the exact opposite, quick to configure/fix, but lots of random occurances, chance induces (largely due to integration of "Chicago" code and other details I've detailed before), and the constant requirements to reboot. But given the parameters, that _both_ systems would have the _same_ induced issues, I have no issue with the study and report, it was well-done from that standpoint. It does take me less time to resolve issues on NT than Linux. So what's the uproar? Check out the Ziff-Davis headline, the absolute *WORST* PUBLISHER FOR SENSATIONALIST TITLES THAT ARE *0* REPRESENTATIVE (written to tell CIOs who don't read them 180 degrees opposite of the actual article content): http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1782996,00.asp [ Omission: I write for another major IT publisher, and I have been grossly misquoted by Ziff-Davis in the past, so I clearly have a bias. ] THIS WAS *NOT* A TEST OF RELIABILITY! I don't doubt this was an editoral move, and not the author's fault. I've seen good writers for Ziff-Davis have their titles totally gone It was a test of "recovery" when things do go wrong. And that assumed Linux would suffer similar mishaps to Windows. Again, given the parameters, it was a fair test. But the parameters were *NOT* REAL-WORLD! This fact has been highlighted in a recent admission by the vendor who did Microsoft's previous TCO study. They have found that their own surveys of real companies show that Windows is not cheaper than Linux from a TCO standpoint. Because, as I posted before, the parameters of that study did not match "real world." But even in that case, Ziff-Davis did not got his far. I am sick and tired of Ziff-Davis "stiring up XXit" just to make headlines. Don't blame Microsoft for this one, the VeriTest title was accurate. But Ziff-Davis continues to be one sensationalist pig of a media outlet. -- Bryan J. Smith mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org From ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net Wed Apr 6 20:11:49 2005 From: ozz at ozz.is-a-geek.net (Austin Denyer (Ozz)) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Now 64-bit ... no real issues except Firefox x86-64 (replaced with Firefox i386) In-Reply-To: <1112777574.5494.10.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <1112777574.5494.10.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <20050406201149.01e7eec1.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 01:52:54 -0700, "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > > I'm now running Linux/x86-64 (Fedora Core 3). Cool! > Anyhoo, sure enough, _no_ plug-ins would work in Firefox x86-64. > > So I uninstalled it, temporarily tapped the i386 YUM repository, and > got Firefox i386 (as well as Mozplugger i386). > > Now just about _all_ plug-ins work, including: > - HelixPlayer (copy .so/.xpt). > - Adobe Acrobat Reader 7.0 (copy nppdf.so) > - FlashPlayer (symlink .so) > - Java 1.5 (symlink .so) > > Outside of the Firefox issue, Fedora Core 3 seems to ship with the > small subset of i386 libraries that are able to run a majority of > programs -- even games like Doom3. I'm installing the UT2004 > Linux/x86-64 version from the "Editor's Choice Edition" as we speak. I run the Pure64 version of Debian, and the way I get around the 64vs32 binary problem is to use a 32bit chroot environment. It works great. Regards, Ozz. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Apr 7 01:58:52 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Now 64-bit ... no real issues except Firefox x86-64 (replaced with Firefox i386) In-Reply-To: <20050406201149.01e7eec1.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> References: <1112777574.5494.10.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <20050406201149.01e7eec1.ozz@ozz.is-a-geek.net> Message-ID: <1112853532.4336.13.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 20:11 -0400, Austin Denyer wrote: > I run the Pure64 version of Debian, _All_ libraries in the distro are /lib64. _All_ programs that are x86-46 capable in the distro are linked to them. Then in addition, there are some i386 libs in /lib. This includes a lot of the libraries required for games. Apparently HelixPlayer is not x86-64 "clean" so that's not a Red Hat issue. I didn't find anything else that wasn't x86-64. I didn't see any libraries that were only i386 -- they were all x86-64, with a few libraries that also were i386 for compatibility. But why they included HelixPlayer i386, but didn't step back on Mozilla/Firefox which are included as "pure" x86-64 in the release, is beyond me. It would make more sense to me for Red Hat to ship Mozilla/Firefox i386, even in the x86-64 version. > and the way I get around the 64vs32 binary problem is to use a 32bit > chroot environment. It works great. I guess that is one way to do it. /lib64 and /lib is another, but that only helps libraries. I wonder what LSB says. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Fri Apr 8 10:00:16 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Disabled Exchange 2000 account bombing Veritas BackupExec 9.1? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C6D@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Here's the story. On Monday I disabled two accounts in the Active Directory tree and moved them out of their original OU into an OU for disabled accounts. Immediately after this the daily Veritas BackupExec 9.1 backup started giving the following error: Backup - \\SRV001\Microsoft Exchange Mailboxes Directory not found. Can not backup directory John Doe [johndoe] and its subdirectories. I searched online and there were somewhat cryptic instructions about missing attributes in the active directory entry for that user. Thing is, it was working just fine before the backup, so why would changing what I presume is one flag change anything? And, also, there are about a dozen other disabled accounts in that disabled-accounts OU none of which give any problems. Any suggestions would be appreciated. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 8 11:16:14 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Disabled Exchange 2000 account bombing Veritas BackupExec 9.1? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C6D@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C6D@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <1112973375.4349.52.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 10:00 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > Here's the story. On Monday I disabled two accounts in the Active > Directory tree and moved them out of their original OU into an OU for > disabled accounts. Immediately after this the daily Veritas BackupExec > 9.1 backup started giving the following error: > Backup - \\SRV001\Microsoft Exchange Mailboxes > Directory not found. Can not backup directory John Doe [johndoe] and its > subdirectories. > I searched online and there were somewhat cryptic instructions about > missing attributes in the active directory entry for that user. Thing > is, it was working just fine before the backup, so why would changing > what I presume is one flag change anything? And, also, there are about > a dozen other disabled accounts in that disabled-accounts OU none of > which give any problems. > Any suggestions would be appreciated. I know I've seen that before, but I can't remember. I want to say it has to do with the fact that not all the attributes were moved, and some attributes still remain in the original OU like you have an entry in each (but you can't see the original anymore). But I could be totally off the mark. I can't remember where I saw this before. It wasn't an error I got in backup, but I had an issue where a move of an object from one OU to another actually ended up being incomplete and the object was in both -- some attributes still in the original, the others in the new. I know my solution was to down the server and repair the ADS tree off- line. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Fri Apr 8 11:20:20 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Disabled Exchange 2000 account bombing VeritasBackupExec 9.1? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C70@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Uh-oh. That sounds entirely too plausible and I really hate to have to take down the server. I'll talk to the VP about it. Thanks Bryan. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include > I know I've seen that before, but I can't remember. I want to say it > has to do with the fact that not all the attributes were > moved, and some > attributes still remain in the original OU like you have an entry in > each (but you can't see the original anymore). From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 8 12:11:07 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Disabled Exchange 2000 account bombing VeritasBackupExec 9.1? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C70@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C70@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <1112976668.4349.73.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 11:20 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > Uh-oh. That sounds entirely too plausible and I really hate to have to > take down the server. I'll talk to the VP about it. Thanks Bryan. Just remember that's what *I* had to do in _my_ situation. You may be able to look through the original OU and find the attributes and scheme that is still remaining without taking down the server. Repairing the ADS tree is like an off-line fsck for ReiserFS. You never want to do it unless it's absolutely necessary because the tools may be out-of-date and you can lose everything! -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Fri Apr 8 12:12:24 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Disabled Exchange 2000 account bombingVeritasBackupExec 9.1? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C77@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> I've passed the buck on this one. I forwarded your comments along with my own findings (which basically supported your experiences) to the VP who will decide what to do. I'm definitely out of my depth on this one, they'll probably contract the IT guru they used to have working here to fix it, I don't feel comfortable enough to even consider touching it. Thanks Bryan. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include From creole3 at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 8 17:05:05 2005 From: creole3 at bellsouth.net (Jim Wharton) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Disabled Exchange 2000 account bombingVeritasBackupExec 9.1? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C77@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677C77@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <1112994305.8881.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 12:12 -0400, Damien McKenna wrote: > I've passed the buck on this one. I forwarded your comments along with > my own findings (which basically supported your experiences) to the VP > who will decide what to do. I'm definitely out of my depth on this one, > they'll probably contract the IT guru they used to have working here to > fix it, I don't feel comfortable enough to even consider touching it. > > Thanks Bryan. > I am willing to bet it ends up being Veritas' crappy exchange client. (you also have to have Outlook installed I think - yeah, on the server.) We have it choking on people's exchange mailboxes all the time. Although we suspended a guy last week, disabled his email box and didn't notice any errors in the backup. We have noticed the sheer volume of errors when Exchange mailbox permissions don't match permissions on the information store. (Some call it your "M" drive.) Oh well, I would have passed the buck myself... Funny, we also run postfix and qmail at my job. Nothing is perfect but we have a heck of a lot less trouble with those two... -Jim From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 9 17:15:58 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] RE: mount -o loop question -- linear v. random access write Message-ID: <1113081359.4361.34.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Filesystems are generally written in two ways: - Linear - Random Access Linear media include tape, CD/DVD-ROM, CD/DVD-R (WORM) and others. They are physically a "single linear track" -- tape being round over one or two spindles, CD/DVD ROM or WORM being a "single groove" kinda like a record (only from the inside to the out, opposite of analog). Such media use filesystems that are streamed from a pre-allocated format, one that is only as big as the size of the data plus meta-data. In fact, you can even think of the ISO9660 filesystem as sort of an "archive" itself. Random Access media include magnetic disc, magneto-optical (MO -- CD-RW, DVD-RW/+RW/-RAM and, to a point, even DVD+R which is not WORM/single- groove). They have a "pie-slice-sector" type arrangement which allows random writing. They use more traditional filesystems like DOS/NT (FAT/NTFS), Linux (Ext2/3), etc... There is also a superset of ISO9660 for such re-write medium called Universal Device/Disc Format (UDF). The sectors are pre-allocated -- i.e., there are "free blocks" available. - Imaging Size and Modification If you "image" a linear write media, which is sort of a form of archive, it will only be the size of the actual data. This is nice because it doesn't take up much room on the disk as the original, maximum capacity of the media. I.e., if you make an ISO image from a CD or DVD, it won't be the full 650-700MB or 4.7GB, respectively, but only the size of the data. The disadvantage is that the linear written media is very difficult to modify. As you'll note, most "archives" can only be "added" to -- possibly with a change of a file simply being the new version added at the end, so the first version is ignored when read. Same deal with ISO9660, you typically add a new track or session, or possibly use some very slow tools that "re-grow" the ISO9660 filesystem. If you "image" a random access write media, it will image the entire size will come over. That means all the free blocks as well as used. If you have a 40GB media, it will be 40GB as an image, without compression. And depending on the filesystem format, compression doesn't always compress the free space ideally or as minimally as possible. Now there are some tools that may only image the "used" portions of the filesystem, which is what things like Ghost and DriveImage do, as well as some free equivalents. The advantage of a random access write filesystem that you can easily modify such media. The free blocks are pre-allocated, so it is easy to merely put data in the place of nothing. That's the advantage of pre- allocated space. - Universal Device/Disc Format (UDF) UDF is designed to be the replacement for ISO9660. It was designed for MO, but it can be used for ROM/WORM too. It supports being both a pre- allocated/random-access-write (and even some discs, e.g., DVD-RAM, come pre-formatted UDF), as well as pre-mastered/linear-write. That way it's much easier to make an image like it was random-access write while taking up less room, modify it directly, and then write it linearly like it was pre-mastered. Unfortunately UDF support varies in every OS. There is UDF write support in cdrecord, but it's not perfect. And many versions of Windows come with no UDF read support (pre-98/XP -- although there was an update for 2000 I believe?), and virtually no version of Windows comes with UDF write/re-write support. So it's up to your recording program, and many lack it as well. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 9 19:43:20 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: PC_Support post question re:Foxconn In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1113090200.4361.59.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-04-09 at 19:11 -0400, jeffrey-wilson@cinci.rr.com wrote: > I am looking to build a mATX linux system, and I noticed your post at the > Pc_Support forums. I was looking at the MSI RS480M2 motherboard, but > a lot of people seem to have troubles with it under Linux. Really? Hmmm. > The only other uATX Athlon 939 mobo I know of is your Foxconn. Yep, it's working like a champ. I have not tested the SerialATA yet (I'm using the 2-channel [parallel] ATA, one for HD, one for DVD- R/RW/RAM/+R/+RW). And the layout is _perfect_ -- works absolutely _perfectly_ IMHO. Another thing I _really_like_ about the FoxConn is the fact that not only is there a PCIe x1 slot, but it is above the PCIe x16 slot. That means I can fit a quality, "double-wide" slot-fan above the video card that sucks out all the air from the rest of the system. This easily reduces case ambient another 10+C, especially if your outtake fan/cut- outs suck. > Can you please tell me what case and PSU you are using, and possibly > where you got them? I was thinking of making a HTPC using a > SilverStone LC11 case, but it has a pretty wimpy PSU. - Power Supply 99.9% of MicroATX power supplies included with their cases are whimpy. Don't count on them for P4/A64 support. Replace it. First off, the PSU is an Athena Power 450W MicroATX: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-104-124 It has a 24-pin + 4-pin, which works fine for this mainboard. I'm throwing a GeForce 6800GT video card in it, and it's runs just fine. I don't know if it could take a GeForce 6800 Ultra or a non-Winchester A64 (the new 90nm SOI A64 3000-3500+). But for the A64 3200+ and 6800GT, it works quite reliably and stable -- even after hours of intense OpenGL. It's about twice as long as a standard MicroATX PS as you can see: http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/17-104-124-03.JPG But it still fits in the MicroATX face on the back. It's about 2-3x heavier than the one that came with the case. - Case: Don't buy the one I bought As far as the case, the one I bought NewEgg doesn't seem to carry it anymore. It was a PowMax M[icro]ATX 3306 Black. It is a small, ~5.5" x ~13" x ~13" or similar. I wanted a small case, but this wasn't a good one. I bought it because it had (2) 60mm exhaust and (1) 60mm intake fan areas. But I recommend _against_ it. Here's my list of complaints: 1. (2) 60mm outtakes are _useless_ 2. (1) 60mm intake is _useless_ 3. 5.25" CD/DVD drawer will break off (as many noted) 4. Handle is flimsy, don't trust it, it won't take a lot of weight The 60mm outtakes are too constrained, the "little holes" in the back work like crap, don't let enough air out. I bought $6 dual-BB thermal- variable fans (12-27CFM, 1900-4200RPM) and they are just overworked until I put in a slot fan (see below). I'd take a nibbler and cut full holes and put brackets instead and get 2x+ the flow. Or just get another case. One of the _biggest_mistakes_ I made was use the 60mm fan intake. It actually _increased_ the temperature of the case. Why? The 60mm fan at the lower front is "fighting" the air pushed forward off of the 6800GT. And that air just rises to the top of the case, and kills ambient a good 10+C (yes, really, really bad!). My HD was hot and I mean hot to the touch until I removed that fan. The slot fan really helped instead. The video card actually draws in cool air from the bottom, and the lower 2 slots which are not in (yes, from the back no less). The ~5.5" is barely enough room. That's not really the case's fault by mine. I figured I'd try it. The DVD drive is slightly over the CPU, and I could NOT use anything but the standard, retail CPU fan (than God I got it). Of course the stupid CD/DVD bay design causes me to lose another 0.75", I almost want to cut the plastic around it. If I buy again, I think it's worth going ~7" wide, and maybe another 2" long. Or maybe just ~6-6.5" with another 2" long. Something just wide enough that I could fit some 80mm outtake fans just above the ATX port- plate, because 60mm don't cut it at less than half the CFM movement. And, actually, if I had to design my own MicroATX case, instead of putting 60mm (or even 80mm outtake fans that take up more room), I'd just put a slot above the ATX port-plate, because there's plenty of room from the CPU, and they do move 40CFM+ without the footprint. BTW, the height is just fine though. I'm going to definitely go Aluminum for the heat transfer. But with the oversized slot fan in the PCIe x1 slot moving ~40CFM, it's actually pretty good. The best $10 I spent at CompUSA, far better than the (3) 60mm fans I bought for the case's rather pathetic cut-outs. > Thanks in advance, Jeff No problem. If you happen to run into a black aluminum MicroATX case that you like, let me know. Or even a silver aluminum (no paint) would probably be better. Forget the color scheme, I'd rather have something solid and cooling. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 9 20:24:48 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: PC_Support post question re:Foxconn -- case and airflow addendum ... In-Reply-To: <1113090200.4361.59.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <1113090200.4361.59.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1113092688.4361.88.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-04-09 at 16:43 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > As far as the case, the one I bought NewEgg doesn't seem to carry it > anymore. It was a PowMax M[icro]ATX 3306 Black. It is a small, ~5.5" x > ~13" x ~13" or similar. Here it is, 5.25" x 13" x 13.5": http://www.atxpowersupplies.com/micro-atx-case-powmax-3306-black.htm Again, I do _not_ recommend it -- it looks better than it really is. But at $35, it was cheap, and I just wanted something for now. Tom's hardware has done a couple of reviews on MicroATX cases. An older one from December 2003: http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20031209/ Since the PowMax I got looked like the Superflower, I thought it would be good. But in reality, the design is not good at all. And Tom's new one from January 2005: http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20050105/ The Antec Aira looks like the idea MicroATX case being only 2.8" wider than typical, proprietary SFF -- at a nice $90 with PS. To draw a comparison, both SFF and most MicroATX cases are typically 5.5-6" wide. The MicroATX cases are then taller (13") to accommodate the mainboard and PS next to it, since the mainboard is already wider than 5.5-6" (whereas SFF fit in that width). What the Antec Aira does is widen that base to 8.3" to fit the MicroATX mainboard, then give more room above for drives, the PS and a large, 120mm, thermally controlled exhaust fan -- the ultimate in quiet and flow. *Unfortunately* it uses a proprietary PS design, which means using another PS is out, and its 300W isn't going to cut it with a GeForce 6800GT like I have. So I'm still looking for a good MicroATX case. - Airflow Considerations I also want to re-iterate the issue I had with the intake at the front. Because a lot of video card coolers "push forward" the air -- i.e., the fan is near the CPU, which is near the back, and the sinks extend forward (at least on the GeForce 6800GT) -- this is an issue. Putting an intake at the front merely makes the air "confront" and then heat rises in the rest of the case (introducing a worse case scenario!). I literally had the temperature _drop_ by _removing_ the 60mm intake. I wish video card manufacturers would start pushing the air to the back, so it would go out the back of the case. Far too many push it toward the front of the card, right into the cool air intake. The card should be getting that air first, not sending it's hot air to it last. I couldn't believe the "stale hot air point" I got! Seen it before, but in an ATX case, there's more room. In this small MicroATX, there was no margin for it. -- Bryan P.S. I really and highly recommend the Athena PS. For $70, it's worth the power output, 19A on the +12V! +3.3 and +5V combined for upto 235W. It handles a 6800GT quite well, although I wouldn't put anything but a 30-55W 90nm SOI A64 3000+, 3200+ or 3500+ in there. It has the 20/24- pin + 4-pin so _any_ mainboard, ATX, ATX2.0 or ATX12V is supported short of a server EPS12V -- it is very _hard_ to find a MicroATX PS wiht 24- pin _and_ the extra 4-pin. And yes, it has (2) _true_ SerialATA with +3.3V lines (as well as +5/12V -- 7-pin, 5 cable, 3.3/5/12+2GND). I've seen so many PSes and "converters" that do _not_ have +3.3V, because they are only Molex +5/12V (4-pin, 4 cable, 5/12+2GND), yet advertise they are SerialATA ready (not!). -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 9 20:27:56 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: PC_Support post question re:Foxconn -- case and airflow addendum (CORRECTION) In-Reply-To: <1113092688.4361.88.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <1113090200.4361.59.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1113092688.4361.88.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1113092876.4361.92.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-04-09 at 17:24 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > The Antec Aira looks like the idea MicroATX case being only 2.8" wider > than typical, proprietary SFF -- at a nice $90 with PS. To draw a > comparison, both SFF and most MicroATX cases are typically 5.5-6" wide. > The MicroATX cases are then taller (13") to accommodate the mainboard > and PS next to it, since the mainboard is already wider than > 5.5-6" (whereas SFF fit in that width). This was all correct, but ... > What the Antec Aira does is widen that base to 8.3" to fit the MicroATX > mainboard, then give more room above for drives, the PS and a large, > 120mm, thermally controlled exhaust fan -- the ultimate in quiet and > flow. Ack! That was _totally_wrong_! The Antec Aria still does what a MicroATX case does, fit a 9.6" x 9.6" mainboard perpendicular to what a SFF does. But instead of keeping it 5.5-6" thin and make it longer for the PS, is just wide enough (10.5") to fit the mainboard, then raises the height to fit the drives, PS and fan. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Apr 10 13:01:58 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: PC_Support post question re:Foxconn -- case and airflow addendum (CORRECTION) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1113152518.4536.43.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 11:12 -0400, jeffrey-wilson@cinci.rr.com wrote: > Thanks for all the input. As I mentioned, this is for a HTPC, so size, sound, and > presentation are all important. Is your PSU very loud? No, not at all. In fact, it's almost dead silent. I wish it had more airflow. > True, very few (even regular) PSUs have 24pin and SATA (and PCIe). And definitely even less MicroATX. It's definitely the one you want. > Yeah, getting the accelerated video and SATA to work is apparently still an issue > with the Xpress 200 chipset. > I know the most recent Radeon driver has the Xpress code, but I think > there might be kernel issues. I was interested in the MSI RS480M2 > for the (temporary) integrated video, good audio, and lack of chipset > cooler fan. But no linux = no good. I want to run MythTV. Ahhh, yes. I'd look into an older nForce2 with NV17/18 (GeForce4 MX) logic. There are several nForce2 chipsets with not only on-board video, but SVideo-out. A Sempron 2800+ will do nicely. Athlon64 is overkill for MythTV. > The case I am looking at has a review here: > http://www.silentpcreview.com/article228-page1.html > I go to this site frequently, and have already built a super-quiet ATX tower. I have a Lian-Li PC-V1200 for my dual-Athlon. Flipped ATX orientation (AGP/PCI cards facing up), 120mm fans, PS, HDs at bottom. I also like the SilverStone TJ-06 design too (which I see other vendors are coming out with the same design). It is also flipped, with a "wind tunnel" at the bottom for the CPU. > Anyhow, the case uses 80mm fans (which I would replace with quieter ones). > As for CPU, I was planning on getting a Winchester (or maybe Venice > when they ship) for low power consumption. No plans to overclock...in > fact, my current rig is underclocked and undervoltaged to run cooler. > There is an optional PCIe riser, so I do not need to go the AGP > route. Oh, very nice. Didn't know there was a PCIe riser. > How is the audio on the Foxconn? Does it have optical out? Not sure. There are S/PDIF headers, but they seem to be coax. > Otherwise I will need to stick in my SB Audigy2. Combined with my > HDTV card and video, there would not be room for a fan slot card. > But, I am still researching cases.... Let me know what you find out. I'm looking at a 7" x 13" x 14" In Win, but that's definitely not a design you'd be interested in for this purpose. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From jasonb at edseek.com Mon Apr 11 12:46:32 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Recommendations for a external 68-pin SCSI disk box? Message-ID: <200504111246.32616.jasonb@edseek.com> I'm looking into buying something to hold some U160 SCSI disks since our 2U server is too small for all our disks. Anyone have any recommendations on what might be a good box to get? I need at least four slots for 68-pin LVD disks. (Thoughts on external U160 LVD cables would be helpful too.) Thanks! From damien at mc-kenna.com Mon Apr 11 22:37:27 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] DLT-4000 still worth bothering with? Message-ID: <425B3467.2080501@mc-kenna.com> I'm considering getting DLT-4000 drives for a) work, b) home. For work they have about 10gig of data that they're backing up right now so don't need to go with Super-DLT just yet. For home I'd like to backup about 20gig, mostly pictures & movie files but some regular data. The drives are on ebay for $50 and under, though tapes seem to be a bit more rare. So, the questions are... Are DLT-4000 drives & tapes still worth bothering with after all these years? If yes, should I be concerned buying a second-hand drive? If no, should I be concerned buying second-hand tapes? If yes, where's a good place to get cheap tapes? Thanks. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From jasonb at edseek.com Tue Apr 12 15:47:01 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: [LeapList] Recommendations for a external 68-pin SCSI disk box? In-Reply-To: <200504120044.59563.pc_support-bounces@matrixlist.com> References: <200504120044.59563.pc_support-bounces@matrixlist.com> Message-ID: <200504121547.01289.jasonb@edseek.com> On Tuesday 12 April 2005 00:44, Jason Boxman wrote: > I'm looking into buying something to hold some U160 SCSI disks since our 2U > server is too small for all our disks. Anyone have any recommendations on > what might be a good box to get? I need at least four slots for 68-pin LVD > disks. (Thoughts on external U160 LVD cables would be helpful too.) > > Thanks! http://www.scsisource.com/scsi_enclosures/4bay5inch/ http://www.datacity.com/scsi-external-enclosures.html http://www.bixnet.com/4bayscsi3exd.html I came across these, which might work. They're all 5.25", though, which means mounting brackets. If only our disks were SCA. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 13 01:16:29 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Tom's Hardware on ATX cases ... many of almost the same 3 designs ... Message-ID: <1113369389.4404.37.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> A selection of feature-varied ATX cases. Ironically, all of the cases were pretty much the same 3 designs. The majority of OEM cases I see these days were the same ones I first saw from Antec in its 1000 series. Nearly all of the "uber-mod" with "transformer/face-type" are of those type. The upper-middle is very distinctive of this design and provides extremely solid structure (so much that even I can sit on it). Of course, it is also why it weights 30lbs. on average. The 1-3 HD drive bays are x3 and come out, and may or may not have a fan. Slightly shorter is another popular design, which either wields the hard drives from the mid-front to the bottom-front, or uses a single cage that comes out. They can be much lighter and even aluminum. They are also typically cheaper in cost, although some are really cheap in design. Typically little frills, they are solid cases overall, at least in cooling options (even if little is included). Lastly is the "new breed" of "flipped ATX" with "wind tunnel" from the front to back. I first saw this in the SilverStone TJ-06 (still in the review), but now there are 3 other companies who are shipping them. This has brought the price down under $100, and one company really goes "no frills" by requiring you to provide your own 120mm fans (which is nice IMHO if you want to use 38mm deep instead of the standard 25mm ones typically included). The only issue is HD cooling, and I think the designer could have put a fan on the back behind the HDs to help a little bit (instead of relying on the PS to pull hot air out). Still, with the AGP/PCI/PCIe cards flipped and "facing upwards," it really helps all the solid state electronics. Full story: http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20050411/index.html -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities, but loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From thebs413 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 19 01:31:28 2005 From: thebs413 at earthlink.net (Bryan J. Smith ) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: 64 bit processor follow up Message-ID: <25563390.1113888689231.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> From: Chris Louden > Are the P4 6xx series "true" 64 bit processors? Actually, AMD processors not "true" 64-bit processors. But then nor was the Digital Alpha, etc... What AMD64 processors are: - 64-bit Integer + 128-bit XMM 3+3 issue ALU+FPU - PAE52/48-bit register addressing - 40-bit I/O Memory Management Unit (I/O MMU) - Split 40-bit EV6 Memory and HyperTransport Addressing What EMT64 processors are: - 64-bit Integer + 80-bit FPU87 + 128-bit SSE 2+2+2 ALU+FPU+SSE - PAE52/48-bit register addressing - *NO* I/O Memory Management Unit (handled by the AGTL+ "Memory Controller Hub") - Shared PAE32/32-bit AGTL+ Memory/IO Addressing Until Intel adopts the same interconnect at Itanium, it will still have several PAE36/32-bit limitations in its hardware platform. And even Itanium is still a "Shared Bus" (even though they call it a "Scalable Node Architecture"). Only proprietary Itanium implementations of non-Intel design (such as the SGI Altix) break the "front side bottleneck" for serious-$$$. -- Bryan J. Smith mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org From thebs413 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 19 01:38:31 2005 From: thebs413 at earthlink.net (Bryan J. Smith ) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... Message-ID: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> My wife's car just bought the farm, and it's time she gets a new one. We're seriously looking at the Toyota Prius which is more than just a "hybrid done right." It's roomy, very functional, etc... for a compact, and formally classifies as a mid-sized at its interior space. And it's just damn forward-thinking with countless "usability" considerations. The price is just unbeliveable, and within $5K of anything else we are looking at. My only concern is that they are extremely popular now that gas prices are up and their resale value will dip as a result. And that also means haggling is already out, the sticker is what you pay. At the same time, we're really hoping it will be a 8 year, 120,000 mile investment, so maybe that's not too much of an issue. Other than electrical (which is "above average" and understandable given the design), the 4-year history of the repairs of the first generation (2004+ are 2nd gen) are outstanding. Another negative is that popularity means that color is not much of a choice. Unless you want to wait (we might though). Anyone considering the Prius? -- Bryan J. Smith mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 07:07:26 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (Patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200504190707.26402.pberry2@cfl.rr.com> We bought a Honda CR-X n December. Seriously considered other vehicles, including those hy-brids, but, this all wheel drive gets better mileage than our 1995 Honda Civic Del Sol, while being larger, so it can carry three children in the back seat! And it has lots of room for groceries! When it was all done, we paid $14,000, (no trade-in), for a used 2003 model, that included a 7 year warranty, Honda Certified, for 100,000 miles, with bumper to bumper warranty including the wipers and tires, for the first year, or 30,000 miles. Courtesy Honda, Rhinehart road, just off of I-4 in Sanford. I had been a motor vehicle dealer, in Florida, for several years, in the 1980's/1990's, selling over 100 vehicles each month, and, have never seen a more fair and better managed dealership. I have never seen as good a customer service program, either! I supose any of the Courtesy Chain of dealers might have as much integrity, honesty, and service! So, I would recommend that you ALSO search those dealers, to find a good deal, because you might get a better choice, and they can 'order up' any car, in any color, from their inventory at any dealer, nationwide! On Tuesday 19 April 2005 01:38 am, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > My wife's car just bought the farm, and it's time she gets a new one. > We're seriously looking at the Toyota Prius which is more than just a > "hybrid done right." It's roomy, very functional, etc... for a compact, and > formally classifies as a mid-sized at its interior space. And it's just > damn forward-thinking with countless "usability" considerations. The price > is just unbeliveable, and within $5K of anything else we are looking at. > > My only concern is that they are extremely popular now that gas prices are > up and their resale value will dip as a result. And that also means > haggling is already out, the sticker is what you pay. At the same time, > we're really hoping it will be a 8 year, 120,000 mile investment, so maybe > that's not too much of an issue. Other than electrical (which is "above > average" and understandable given the design), the 4-year history of the > repairs of the first generation (2004+ are 2nd gen) are outstanding. > > Another negative is that popularity means that color is not much of a > choice. Unless you want to wait (we might though). > Anyone considering the Prius? > > > > -- > Bryan J. Smith mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org > > _______________________________________________ > Pc_support mailing list > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support -- -- Patrick's Recommended URLs http://livecdlist.com http://yolinux.com http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ http://safeharbordome.com From tim at mcdonough.net Tue Apr 19 08:18:25 2005 From: tim at mcdonough.net (Tim McDonough) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4264F711.3050700@mcdonough.net> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > My wife's car just bought the farm, and it's time she gets a new one. > We're seriously looking at the Toyota Prius which is more than just a "hybrid done right." > It's roomy, very functional, etc... for a compact, and formally classifies as a mid-sized at its interior space. > And it's just damn forward-thinking with countless "usability" considerations. > The price is just unbeliveable, and within $5K of anything else we are looking at. Perhaps you've checked on this since you are considering the vehicle: How long do they rate the life of the battery systems and what's the estimated cost to replace them when the time does come? I have not seen these cars up close at a dealer but there was one nearby in traffic a few weeks ago. Nice looking vehicle and it seemed to be handling frequent accelerations very nicely. -- Tim McDonough Springfield, IL From ae4ko at amsat.org Tue Apr 19 08:47:13 2005 From: ae4ko at amsat.org (Aaron Morrison) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4264C591.2216.1A7B0B@localhost> Have you done a cost analysis on the hybrid v. non-hybrid version? You can buy a _lot_ of gasoline (even at todays prices) for $5K. That is, of course, if you don't mind being an early adopter. --am On 18 Apr 2005 at 22:38, Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee wrote: > My wife's car just bought the farm, and it's time she gets a new one. > We're seriously looking at the Toyota Prius which is more than just a "hybrid done right." > It's roomy, very functional, etc... for a compact, and formally classifies as a mid-sized at its interior space. > And it's just damn forward-thinking with countless "usability" considerations. > The price is just unbeliveable, and within $5K of anything else we are looking at. > > My only concern is that they are extremely popular now that gas prices are up and their resale value will dip as a result. > And that also means haggling is already out, the sticker is what you pay. > At the same time, we're really hoping it will be a 8 year, 120,000 mile investment, so maybe that's not too much of an issue. > Other than electrical (which is "above average" and understandable given the design), the 4-year history of the repairs of the first generation (2004+ are 2nd gen) are outstanding. > > Another negative is that popularity means that color is not much of a choice. > Unless you want to wait (we might though). > Anyone considering the Prius? > > > > -- > Bryan J. Smith mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org > > _______________________________________________ > Pc_support mailing list > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support From dsimmons at powersmiths.com Tue Apr 19 10:52:44 2005 From: dsimmons at powersmiths.com (David Simmons) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1113922364.5033.14.camel@suse.something.com> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 22:38 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > We're seriously looking at the Toyota Prius I've been following the hybrid/electric vehicle info for awhile. The biggest question I'd have up front (and haven't asked a Toyota/Prius guy this question in awhile). Q: How long (either time/distance) will the batteries last? Q: When it's time to change batteries, how much? How much down time? Who does the work? We're not used to thinking this way with gas engines...need to change mindsets. Let me know if/when you get one.....and if you're offering rides?...grin dave From billsmith at ispwest.com Tue Apr 19 14:16:14 2005 From: billsmith at ispwest.com (Bill Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... References: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1113922364.5033.14.camel@suse.something.com> Message-ID: <005a01c5450b$e35e6be0$0203a8c0@hbco> One question you might ask is if the car is designed as an owner-maintained vehicle. The Nissan-Datsun 280Z was sold with this feature. One would think with computer assisted technology that owner-maintenance would be easier than ever. Of course I wouldn't expect a serious response. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: David Simmons To: Bryan J. Smith ; This is the PC Support list. Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 22:38 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > We're seriously looking at the Toyota Prius I've been following the hybrid/electric vehicle info for awhile. The biggest question I'd have up front (and haven't asked a Toyota/Prius guy this question in awhile). Q: How long (either time/distance) will the batteries last? Q: When it's time to change batteries, how much? How much down time? Who does the work? We're not used to thinking this way with gas engines...need to change mindsets. Let me know if/when you get one.....and if you're offering rides?...grin dave _______________________________________________ Pc_support mailing list Pc_support@matrixlist.com http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 20 01:23:24 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <4264F711.3050700@mcdonough.net> References: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <4264F711.3050700@mcdonough.net> Message-ID: <1113974604.4332.2.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 07:18 -0500, Tim McDonough wrote: > Perhaps you've checked on this since you are considering the vehicle: > How long do they rate the life of the battery systems and what's the > estimated cost to replace them when the time does come? Hmmm, haven't checked that. But the Hybrid PowerTrain is covered for 8 years, 100,000 miles -- batteries included. I have looked past _all_ hybrids to this point, but this is the first one that isn't a "typical hybrid." It was designed specifically for its purpose. > I have not seen these cars up close at a dealer but there was one nearby > in traffic a few weeks ago. Nice looking vehicle and it seemed to be > handling frequent accelerations very nicely. It has nearly 300 ft-lbs. of torque from launch. That carries it well into 40mph. Beyond 40mph, the 1.5L engine is doing most of it, and acceleration is affected. The biggest issue most people have is the CVT. They are going 50mph before the know it. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ------------------------------------------------------------------ Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities and loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 20 01:30:06 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <4264C591.2216.1A7B0B@localhost> References: <4264C591.2216.1A7B0B@localhost> Message-ID: <1113975006.4332.10.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 08:47 -0400, Aaron Morrison wrote: > Have you done a cost analysis on the hybrid v. non-hybrid version? There is _no_ non-hybrid version. Unlike countless other "hybrids" that don't offer much, this was designed _as_ a hybrid -- right down to regenerative braking, etc... Forgetting the fact that it's a hybrid, most people like them period. They are extremely roomy, 4-5 adults fit very nicely, well designed overall. Small enough to consider a "compact," but formally filed as a "mid-size" because of the sheer internal space and comfort. > You can buy a _lot_ of gasoline (even at todays prices) for $5K. I'm thinking of far more than just the gasoline or the environment. Most people love them, forgetting they are a Hybrid. They really are a nicely designed car, very aerodynamic (0.26 drag-co). The roominess is not something you'd figure from the outside view. > That is, of course, if you don't mind being an early adopter. This isn't an "early adoption," it's a 2nd generation _dedicated_ design. The 1st generation (1997-2003 Japan, 2000-2003 US) left a _lot_ to be desired. The 2nd gen took Motor Trend's 2004 "Car of the Year" award not because it was a Hybrid. Consumer Reports has tracked the 1st generation's reliability through 4 years of use, and the parts have been outstanding. The first year of the 2nd gen seems to be on the same track. Surprising because you'd figure there'd be more with regenerative braking, etc... But in reality, because there is that added "stress," the parts are designed for it. Not "tacked on" to some non-hybrid base. I'm looking for an 8 year, 120,000 mile car. I'll trade it when the hybrid components (drive, engine, batteries, etc...) aren't covered anymore and they start to go -- which will be at least 100,000 miles because of the standard warranty. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ------------------------------------------------------------------ Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities and loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 20 01:39:05 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Toyota Prius ... -- too popular to buy right now (going to wait a few years) In-Reply-To: <1113922364.5033.14.camel@suse.something.com> References: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1113922364.5033.14.camel@suse.something.com> Message-ID: <1113975545.4332.20.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 09:52 -0500, David Simmons wrote: > I've been following the hybrid/electric vehicle info for awhile. I have too and they all _sucked_ until last year. I looked at the Honda and other offerings, they are all "tacked on" designs of a base and offer _little_ incentive. > The biggest question I'd have up front (and haven't asked a Toyota/Prius guy > this question in awhile). > Q: How long (either time/distance) will the batteries last? > Q: When it's time to change batteries, how much? How much down time? > Who does the work? Again, don't know, but they are covered by a standard 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty. Yes, the original batteries are covered that long, no charge to replace. > We're not used to thinking this way with gas engines...need to change > mindsets. For all the hybrids in the past, I agree. But not the Prius. It's not a "tacked on" hybrid design of an existing base -- it is a design entirely for its own. > Let me know if/when you get one.....and if you're offering rides?...grin If I could get one at _list_ price with the standard #2 option (curtain airbags and keyless entry) for $22K, I'd buy one. But right now they are in such demand that not only are only the #5/#6 options the only ones available (+$5-6K for navigation, etc...), but there is typically a $3-4K markup! That's $30K! Not worth it! I'll wait a few years. They went into "double production" early this year. If my wife's car would have only broke down 6 months ago, before the recent gas hikes. Over the last 6 months, people have been buying them because of the gas prices. I wanted one _before_ gas prices went up. Not because I'm "green" or trying to "save green," but they're a damn well-designed car! The 1st gen was _awesome_ in reliability, but not the "total package." I wouldn't have bought one. But now the 2nd gen is now "matured" in features, comfort and everything else -- people love them _not_ because they are a hybrid. Unfortunately, $30K is about all you can find them for -- about 40-50% more than the base price! Not worth it. Especially being that they are so popular, the resale value will plummet. In fact, I've heard of many people selling their old 2004s to get the 2005s, and while some owners/dealers believe the value holds -- they don't because people are buying new instead. I'll wait a few years until there are _more_ "specifically designed hybrids." Toyota is supposed to have over half their line-up available as hybrid by 2007, with half of those being dedicated, well-designed cars. Not "tacked on" crap designs. Not "don't touch me or I'll break" lineage rice-burners -- _very_well_designed_. After reading the Consumer Reports and all of the owner reviews, I forget I'm even reading a review about a Hybrid. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ------------------------------------------------------------------ Community software is all about choice, choice of technology. Unfortunately, too many Linux advocates port over the so-called "choice" from the commercial software world, brand name marketing. The result is false assumptions, failure to focus on the real technical similarities and loyalty to blind vendor alignments. From hubbardjw at charter.net Tue Apr 19 02:19:34 2005 From: hubbardjw at charter.net (Jerry) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4264A2F6.9080701@charter.net> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >My wife's car just bought the farm, and it's time she gets a new one. >We're seriously looking at the Toyota Prius which is more than just a "hybrid done right." >It's roomy, very functional, etc... for a compact, and formally classifies as a mid-sized at its interior space. >And it's just damn forward-thinking with countless "usability" considerations. >The price is just unbeliveable, and within $5K of anything else we are looking at. > >My only concern is that they are extremely popular now that gas prices are up and their resale value will dip as a result. >And that also means haggling is already out, the sticker is what you pay. >At the same time, we're really hoping it will be a 8 year, 120,000 mile investment, so maybe that's not too much of an issue. >Other than electrical (which is "above average" and understandable given the design), the 4-year history of the repairs of the first generation (2004+ are 2nd gen) are outstanding. > >Another negative is that popularity means that color is not much of a choice. >Unless you want to wait (we might though). >Anyone considering the Prius? > > > > How long (time/miles) will the batteries last and how much does it cost to replace them? This may offset the savings in from higher mileage. -- Jerry Hubbard hubbardjw@charter.net From philb at philb.us Wed Apr 20 06:25:09 2005 From: philb at philb.us (Phil Barnett) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Re: Toyota Prius ... -- too popular to buy right now (going to wait a few years) In-Reply-To: <1113975545.4332.20.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <30059235.1113889111805.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <1113922364.5033.14.camel@suse.something.com> <1113975545.4332.20.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <200504200625.09383.philb@philb.us> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 01:39 am, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > $3-4K markup! Is that markup all over the US, or just around here? You can have a nice vacation in a distant town and drive back for less than that if it's only local. -- "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man, hated and scorned. When the cause succeeds, however, the timid join him...for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -Mark Twain From ae4ko at amsat.org Wed Apr 20 08:57:47 2005 From: ae4ko at amsat.org (Aaron Morrison) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <1113975006.4332.10.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <4264C591.2216.1A7B0B@localhost> Message-ID: <4266198B.30345.21CE65@localhost> before I comment, have you seen this? good info there. http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/hybrid/ On 19 Apr 2005 at 22:30, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 08:47 -0400, Aaron Morrison wrote: > > Have you done a cost analysis on the hybrid v. non-hybrid version? > > There is _no_ non-hybrid version. Unlike countless other "hybrids" that > don't offer much, this was designed _as_ a hybrid -- right down to > regenerative braking, etc... Perhaps it was poorly phrased; I meant non-hybrid with similar features. Of course, something that I didn't remember at the time is that there is (was?) and IRS tax credit for qualifying hybrids (looks like the credit for 2005 is $1,000). > > You can buy a _lot_ of gasoline (even at todays prices) for $5K. > > I'm thinking of far more than just the gasoline or the environment. As you should. > > That is, of course, if you don't mind being an early adopter. > > This isn't an "early adoption," it's a 2nd generation _dedicated_ > design. The 1st generation (1997-2003 Japan, 2000-2003 US) left a _lot_ > to be desired. The 2nd gen took Motor Trend's 2004 "Car of the Year" > award not because it was a Hybrid. Roughly 88,000 hybrids were sold in the United States in 2004, accounting for about one-half of one percent of total vehicle sales. This year, with the number of hybrids expected to increase from eight to 11, J.D. Power-LMC Automotive Forecasting Services predicts sales to grow to 200,000, or about 1.2 percent of the market. I'd call that early adoption. > > I'm looking for an 8 year, 120,000 mile car. I'll trade it when the > hybrid components (drive, engine, batteries, etc...) aren't covered > anymore and they start to go -- which will be at least 100,000 miles > because of the standard warranty. Hard to beat that on a "normal" car (unless you look at the hyundai's of the market.) I'd say go for it, and as Phil points out, check prices in lots of areas. You can drive a long way for $1,000. --am From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 20 12:02:46 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bryan=20J=2E=20Smith?=) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?[Pc=5FSupport]_Re:_Toyota_Prius_..._--_too_popular_to_bu?= y right now (going to wait a few years) Message-ID: I think I found a place in Deltona that doesn't. That had a 2004 that they let my wife test drive. Unfortunately they are still only selling package #5/#6, so they are $26-27K. So I think I'm going to wait 3 years in the hope there is more than 1 viable hybrid model. Because as of right now, the Prius is the only Hybrid that is viable. -----Original Message----- From: Phil Barnett Date: 4/20/05 3:25 am To: pc_support@matrixlist.com Subj: Re: [Pc_Support] Re: Toyota Prius ... -- too popular to buy right now (going to wait a few years) On Wednesday 20 April 2005 01:39 am, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > $3-4K markup! Is that markup all over the US, or just around here? You can have a nice vacation in a distant town and drive back for less than that if it's only local. -- "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man, hated and scorned. When the cause succeeds, however, the timid join him...for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -Mark Twain _______________________________________________ Pc_support mailing list Pc_support@matrixlist.com http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Apr 20 12:50:15 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bryan=20J=2E=20Smith?=) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?[Pc=5FSupport]_Toyota_Prius_...?= Message-ID: Did you see his 2004 Prius review? I like this statement ... "a no-sacrifice 'green' car." That sums it up. As far as safety, he should see the Consumer Reports review. It is far safer than 90% of the cars in its class. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Morrison Date: 4/20/05 5:58 am To: This is the PC Support list. Subj: Re: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... before I comment, have you seen this? good info there. http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/hybrid/ On 19 Apr 2005 at 22:30, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 08:47 -0400, Aaron Morrison wrote: > > Have you done a cost analysis on the hybrid v. non-hybrid version? > > There is _no_ non-hybrid version. Unlike countless other "hybrids" that > don't offer much, this was designed _as_ a hybrid -- right down to > regenerative braking, etc... Perhaps it was poorly phrased; I meant non-hybrid with similar features. Of course, something that I didn't remember at the time is that there is (was?) and IRS tax credit for qualifying hybrids (looks like the credit for 2005 is $1,000). > > You can buy a _lot_ of gasoline (even at todays prices) for $5K. > > I'm thinking of far more than just the gasoline or the environment. As you should. > > That is, of course, if you don't mind being an early adopter. > > This isn't an "early adoption," it's a 2nd generation _dedicated_ > design. The 1st generation (1997-2003 Japan, 2000-2003 US) left a _lot_ > to be desired. The 2nd gen took Motor Trend's 2004 "Car of the Year" > award not because it was a Hybrid. Roughly 88,000 hybrids were sold in the United States in 2004, accounting for about one-half of one percent of total vehicle sales. This year, with the number of hybrids expected to increase from eight to 11, J.D. Power-LMC Automotive Forecasting Services predicts sales to grow to 200,000, or about 1.2 percent of the market. I'd call that early adoption. > > I'm looking for an 8 year, 120,000 mile car. I'll trade it when the > hybrid components (drive, engine, batteries, etc...) aren't covered > anymore and they start to go -- which will be at least 100,000 miles > because of the standard warranty. Hard to beat that on a "normal" car (unless you look at the hyundai's of the market.) I'd say go for it, and as Phil points out, check prices in lots of areas. You can drive a long way for $1,000. --am _______________________________________________ Pc_support mailing list Pc_support@matrixlist.com http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support From dsimmons at powersmiths.com Wed Apr 20 12:49:29 2005 From: dsimmons at powersmiths.com (David Simmons) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Program to view which programs are filling Swap Message-ID: <1114015770.5054.19.camel@suse.something.com> Guys, Was hoping that maybe someone has already been down this road...as my Googling is not producing an answer. One of my boxes is using 50% of it's swap space (still has alot of system memory - and basically just running the OS and Evolution) - so I'm wondering if it's something to do with SpamAssassin or spamd....BUT am trying to find a program that will help me to investigate what process is writing/filling up swap? thanks in advance, Dave From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 20 15:20:33 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (Patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <4266198B.30345.21CE65@localhost> References: <4264C591.2216.1A7B0B@localhost> <4266198B.30345.21CE65@localhost> Message-ID: <200504201520.33493.pberry2@cfl.rr.com> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 08:57 am, Aaron Morrison wrote: > On 19 Apr 2005 at 22:30, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Perhaps it was poorly phrased; I meant non-hybrid with similar > features. Of course, something that I didn't remember at the time is > that there is (was?) and IRS tax credit for qualifying hybrids (looks > like the credit for 2005 is $1,000). But, the tax credit for any business purchasing a vehicle that weighs OVER 6,000 pounds, is UP TO $25,600 PER YEAR of expenses!!! Makes you wonder just WHO is the better LOBBYIST, Greanpeace, or 'THE BIG THREE' Automakers!? -- -- Patrick's Recommended URLs http://livecdlist.com http://yolinux.com http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ http://safeharbordome.com From m9u35g at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 20:05:01 2005 From: m9u35g at gmail.com (Justin M. Keyes) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:58 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Toyota Prius ... In-Reply-To: <200504201520.33493.pberry2@cfl.rr.com> References: <4264C591.2216.1A7B0B@localhost> <4266198B.30345.21CE65@localhost> <200504201520.33493.pberry2@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <46f680d050420170548459af5@mail.gmail.com> Any taxes withheld from the government are good. On 4/20/05, Patrick wrote: > On Wednesday 20 April 2005 08:57 am, Aaron Morrison wrote: > > > On 19 Apr 2005 at 22:30, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > > Perhaps it was poorly phrased; I meant non-hybrid with similar > > features. Of course, something that I didn't remember at the time is > > that there is (was?) and IRS tax credit for qualifying hybrids (looks > > like the credit for 2005 is $1,000). > > But, the tax credit for any business purchasing a vehicle that weighs OVER > 6,000 pounds, is UP TO $25,600 PER YEAR of expenses!!! > > Makes you wonder just WHO is the better LOBBYIST, Greanpeace, or 'THE BIG > THREE' Automakers!? -- Justin Keyes From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Apr 27 15:18:04 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] New to SCSI, what's needed to use an internal DLT drive? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EBC@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> I'm looking at buying at least two internal Quantum TH5AA DLT-4000 drives and am not sure what to do regarding the hardware. I've got a SCSI one card in one machine and will most likely have to get some for the others. Being a SCSI newbie I'm not sure where to start regarding getting extras. I'll need cables, but what sort? Will I need terminators? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/attachments/20050427/72d91ff8/attachment.html From jasonb at edseek.com Wed Apr 27 15:34:16 2005 From: jasonb at edseek.com (Jason Boxman) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] New to SCSI, what's needed to use an internal DLT drive? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EBC@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EBC@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <200504271534.16588.jasonb@edseek.com> On Wednesday 27 April 2005 15:18, Damien McKenna wrote: > I'm looking at buying at least two internal Quantum TH5AA DLT-4000 > drives and am not sure what to do regarding the hardware. I've got a > SCSI one card in one machine and will most likely have to get some for > the others. Being a SCSI newbie I'm not sure where to start regarding > getting extras. I'll need cables, but what sort? Will I need > terminators? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. Welcome to the wonderful world of SCSI. ;) From what I can tell, you always need a terminator. If you're running older SE SCSI, the drive can terminate the chain without any problems, if the drive or device offers a 'terminate' jumper. If not, you need an SE terminator for the cable. If you're using an LVD cable and have LVD drives (U80/160/320) then you must have a terminator, either LVD/SE or just LVD. Ouch, from the photos that looks like a 50-pin SCSI. I'd imagine it can self terminate and you just an old SCSI card like an Adaptec 2940UW which has native 50-pin and a 50-pin cable. Is it one of these? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73329&item=5770383936 From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Wed Apr 27 15:52:52 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] New to SCSI, what's needed to use an internal DLT drive? Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EC0@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> > Welcome to the wonderful world of SCSI. ;) LOL :) > From what I can tell, you always need a terminator. If you're > running older SE SCSI, the drive can terminate the chain without > any problems, if the drive or device offers a 'terminate' jumper. > If not, you need an SE terminator for the cable. I'll have to wait and see then. > If you're using an LVD cable and have LVD drives Nah, sticking with basic SCSI for the moment. Don't need those sort of capacities yet. > Ouch, from the photos that looks like a 50-pin SCSI. I'd > imagine it can self terminate and you just an old SCSI card > like an Adaptec 2940UW which has native 50-pin and a 50-pin > cable. I need to see what sort of SCSI my card does... > Is it one of these? That's the type of drive, I'm waiting to see if I can get some cheap then I'll proceed from there. Some more questions: * As I remember it there's SCSI I, SCSI II, SCSI II Fast, SCSI II Wide, SCSI II Fast/Wide, then on into LVD and SCSI 3. What's the compatibility like between the variations of SCSI I and II? * Will it "just work" so long as I have the termination correct and the right cable? Thanks. Damien From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 27 16:14:52 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (Patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] New to SCSI, =?iso-8859-1?q?=09what=27s_needed_to_use_an_internal_DLT?= drive? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EBC@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EBC@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <200504271614.52420.pberry2@cfl.rr.com> On Wednesday 27 April 2005 03:18 pm, Damien McKenna wrote: > I'm looking at buying at least two internal Quantum TH5AA DLT-4000 > drives and am not sure what to do regarding the hardware. I've got a > SCSI one card in one machine and will most likely have to get some for > the others. Being a SCSI newbie I'm not sure where to start regarding > getting extras. I'll need cables, but what sort? Will I need > terminators? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. I have some 50pin SCSI cards on hand that run about $9.99 plus shipping for the 50 pin Adaptec cards, usually, on ebay. Sometimes, they are at the computer shows, although most vendors don't have any use for them, and sell them for $6 to $15 (depending upon the SCSI model). I have paid as little as $1 each for cables, plus shipping on ebay. Recently bought 4 cables, (3 are 50 pin, one is LVD/SE) for $5.50$ including shipping. I have some CDrom drives, and burners, all are 50 pin, and it is fast enough for those purposes. I like the 68 pin stuff for hard drives, though, because the throughput is as high as 320 mb/s for SCSI UW3. -- -- Patrick's Recommended URLs http://livecdlist.com http://yolinux.com http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ http://safeharbordome.com From pberry2 at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 27 16:17:56 2005 From: pberry2 at cfl.rr.com (Patrick) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] New to SCSI, what's needed to use an internal DLT drive? In-Reply-To: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EC0@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EC0@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> Message-ID: <200504271617.56814.pberry2@cfl.rr.com> On Wednesday 27 April 2005 03:52 pm, Damien McKenna wrote: > > Welcome to the wonderful world of SCSI. ;) > > LOL :) > > > From what I can tell, you always need a terminator. If you're > > running older SE SCSI, the drive can terminate the chain without > > any problems, if the drive or device offers a 'terminate' jumper. > > If not, you need an SE terminator for the cable. > > I'll have to wait and see then. > > > If you're using an LVD cable and have LVD drives > > Nah, sticking with basic SCSI for the moment. Don't need those sort of > capacities yet. > > > Ouch, from the photos that looks like a 50-pin SCSI. I'd > > imagine it can self terminate and you just an old SCSI card > > like an Adaptec 2940UW which has native 50-pin and a 50-pin > > cable. > > I need to see what sort of SCSI my card does... > > > Is it one of these? > > That's the type of drive, I'm waiting to see if I can get some cheap > then I'll proceed from there. > > Some more questions: > > * As I remember it there's SCSI I, SCSI II, SCSI II Fast, SCSI II Wide, > SCSI II Fast/Wide, then on into LVD and SCSI 3. What's the > compatibility like between the variations of SCSI I and II? > > * Will it "just work" so long as I have the termination correct and the > right cable? > > Thanks. > > Damien I think that it is called 'auto-negotiation', so that most stuff works within one or tewo generations. You really should google for the SCSI how-to's! -- -- Patrick's Recommended URLs http://livecdlist.com http://yolinux.com http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ http://safeharbordome.com From whittake at sbaflorida.com Wed Apr 27 16:02:08 2005 From: whittake at sbaflorida.com (Homer Whittaker) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: [PC_Support] New to SCSI, what's needed to use an internal DLT drive? In-Reply-To: <200504271534.16588.jasonb@edseek.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EBC@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> <200504271534.16588.jasonb@edseek.com> Message-ID: <200504271602.08328.whittake@sbaflorida.com> A fortuitous topic: I am much less knowledgeable about SCSI than Damien and I am attempting to install a UMAX UTA-11 SCSI scanner to my Debian machine. I have an internal scsi card (not an Adaptec 2940) installed, the card is attached to my computer with a small scsi connector, a 5+/- ft cable with a parallel connector on the other end going into a female parallel port on the scanner. There is a short (12 inch ) cable going from the scanner body to the scanner cover. The scanner body end is a printer type connector, but 1/2 inch or so shorter than a standard printer connector and the connector going into the cover is a parrallel connector. I do not know anything about terminators or whatever. Do they go in line with one of the cables on the scanner? Perhaps one of you can tell from the UMAX UTA-11 parts list located at: http://www.psds.com/partssearch/td-umax.htm Homer Whittaker On Wednesday 27 April 2005 03:34 pm, Jason Boxman wrote: > On Wednesday 27 April 2005 15:18, Damien McKenna wrote: > > I'm looking at buying at least two internal Quantum TH5AA DLT-4000 > > drives and am not sure what to do regarding the hardware. I've got a > > SCSI one card in one machine and will most likely have to get some for > > the others. Being a SCSI newbie I'm not sure where to start regarding > > getting extras. I'll need cables, but what sort? Will I need > > terminators? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. > > Welcome to the wonderful world of SCSI. ;) > > From what I can tell, you always need a terminator. If you're running older > SE SCSI, the drive can terminate the chain without any problems, if the drive > or device offers a 'terminate' jumper. If not, you need an SE terminator for > the cable. > > If you're using an LVD cable and have LVD drives (U80/160/320) then you must > have a terminator, either LVD/SE or just LVD. > > Ouch, from the photos that looks like a 50-pin SCSI. I'd imagine it can self > terminate and you just an old SCSI card like an Adaptec 2940UW which has > native 50-pin and a 50-pin cable. > > Is it one of these? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73329&item=5770383936 > > _______________________________________________ > Pc_support mailing list > Pc_support@matrixlist.com > http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support > From dmckenna at thelimucompany.com Thu Apr 28 09:00:33 2005 From: dmckenna at thelimucompany.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] Longhorn looses another key feature Message-ID: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677ED2@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> http://www.vnunet.com/news/1162710 Paladium isn't gone completely but isn't everything they said it would be. LOL. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - Damien.McKenna@thelimucompany.com The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/attachments/20050428/68e0a8ee/attachment.html From damien at mc-kenna.com Thu Apr 28 23:55:20 2005 From: damien at mc-kenna.com (Damien McKenna) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: [Pc_Support] New to SCSI, what's needed to use an internal DLT drive? In-Reply-To: <200504271534.16588.jasonb@edseek.com> References: <5C9DC445A45FEC4185D272DAF6AF37D1677EBC@tlc001.tlcusa.thelimucompany.com> <200504271534.16588.jasonb@edseek.com> Message-ID: <4271B028.1000405@mc-kenna.com> Jason Boxman wrote: >From what I can tell, you always need a terminator. If you're running older >SE SCSI, the drive can terminate the chain without any problems, if the drive >or device offers a 'terminate' jumper. If not, you need an SE terminator for >the cable. > > Its a "SCSI SE" drive, I won two via Ebay at $19.99 each, totalling $52 with shipping. The aution description mentioned they were "SCSI SE" drives, and the one SCSI card I have says it is an Advansys ASC3050B 8-bit / single-ended Ultra SCSI interface. I think they're the same? Guess I'll go find me a 50-pin cable or two and find out when the drives arrive. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 29 14:08:12 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bryan=20J=2E=20Smith?=) Date: Tue Oct 31 13:16:59 2006 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?[Pc=5FSupport]_New_to_SCSI,_what's_needed_to_use_an_?= internal DLT drive? Message-ID: FYI, the Advansys driver in Linux 2.6 has been tagged as unmaintained/untested legacy last time I checked. The 2.6 kernel has changed a lot of SCSI IOCTL interfaces, and many drivers required a refresh. Of course thus doesn't apply if you're not running Linux. 5MBps SE Narrow (8-bit) SCSI 10MBps SE Narrow/Fast or Wide (16-bit) 20MBps SE Narrow/Ultra or Wide/Fast 40MBps SE Wide/Ultra 80MBps LVD [Wide/]Ultra80 (aka Ultra2) 160MBps LVD [Wide/]Ultra160 (aka Ultra3) 320MBps LVD [Wide/]Ultra320 xxxMBps LVD SerialSCSI (in draft) BTW, if you have a tape drive, you want to get the _fastest_ supported by your drive. E.g., newer DLT, LTO, Mammoth or other 10+MBps sustained transfer drives are typically LVD for a reason. Because if the interface cannot keep up with the drive, it needs to stop, reverse and restart for when the stream "catches up." Otherwise you'll wear out both cartrides and drive mechanics quickly. I recommend LSI (formerly Symbios Logic, formerly NCR) 53c895 and 53c1010 Ultra80/160/320 LVD controllers. Also be sure to use UTP (twisted pair) LVD cables and LVD terminators. -----Original Message----- From: Damien McKenna Date: 05-4-28 22:55 To: jasonb@edseek.com, "This is the PC Support list." , This is the PC Support list. Subj: Re: [Pc_Support] New to SCSI, what's needed to use an internal DLT drive? Jason Boxman wrote: >From what I can tell, you always need a terminator. If you're running older >SE SCSI, the drive can terminate the chain without any problems, if the drive >or device offers a 'terminate' jumper. If not, you need an SE terminator for >the cable. > > Its a "SCSI SE" drive, I won two via Ebay at $19.99 each, totalling $52 with shipping. The aution description mentioned they were "SCSI SE" drives, and the one SCSI card I have says it is an Advansys ASC3050B 8-bit / single-ended Ultra SCSI interface. I think they're the same? Guess I'll go find me a 50-pin cable or two and find out when the drives arrive. -- Damien McKenna, husband, father, geek. damien@mc-kenna.com - http://www.mc-kenna.com/ _______________________________________________ Pc_support mailing list Pc_support@matrixlist.com http://lists.matrixlist.com/mailman/listinfo/pc_support